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Thrar wrote:In terms of cost-effectiveness and assuming not much micro, would this example be about even, slightly in favor of the jans, or strongly in their favor?

Assuming no market upgrades (hunt = 0.84 food/sec, wood = 0.5/sec, coin = 0.6/sec), an RE patch janissary takes approximately 161 vill seconds to train, while a crossbowman takes 127. It takes 7 shots for a janissary to kill an xbow, and 12 shots for a TAD xbow to kill a janissary. If the xbows don't kite (they will in a real game but still), it will take an xbow 12/7th's as long for an xbow to kill a jan vs the jan killing the xbow. 127 vill seconds* 12/7 = about 218. If jans cost 218 vill seconds, the in-range cost-effectivity would be equal, if it were any more then it would be in the favor of the xbows.

IntrepidExplorer wrote:

Thrar wrote:In terms of cost-effectiveness and assuming not much micro, would this example be about even, slightly in favor of the jans, or strongly in their favor?

Assuming no market upgrades (hunt = 0.84 food/sec, wood = 0.5/sec, coin = 0.6/sec), an RE patch janissary takes approximately 161 vill seconds to train, while a crossbowman takes 127. It takes 7 shots for a janissary to kill an xbow, and 12 shots for a TAD xbow to kill a janissary. If the xbows don't kite (they will in a real game but still), it will take an xbow 12/7th's as long for an xbow to kill a jan vs the jan killing the xbow. 127 vill seconds* 12/7 = about 218. If jans cost 218 vill seconds, the in-range cost-effectivity would be equal, if it were any more then it would be in the favor of the xbows.

Can't calculate this way because of drop-off

Funny thing is, most skirms do not counter muskets and equivalent units well for cost in a stand-and-shoot fight. They are silghtly more cost efficient, but they necessitate the use of anti-cavalry due to their vulnerability to cavalry and this results in a loss of efficiency.

Janissaries are also interesting in that if they're considered on a per res level, they're less effective than musketeers for cost in ranged fights and should seek to engage opponents in melee whenever possible.

Inst wrote:Funny thing is, most skirms do not counter muskets and equivalent units well for cost in a stand-and-shoot fight. They are silghtly more cost efficient, but they necessitate the use of anti-cavalry due to their vulnerability to cavalry and this results in a loss of efficiency.

Janissaries are also interesting in that if they're considered on a per res level, they're less effective than musketeers for cost in ranged fights and should seek to engage opponents in melee whenever possible.

Thats why you do not get into stand-and-shoot fights if you face musks with your skirms. Putting jan in melee vs musk does not quite work like that cuz the enemy can still shoot your jan with his musk. In addition to that you have to walk up to your enemys units and he can still kite. Moreover melee units in higher numbers have pathing issues. However using like one jan in melee to snare a group of musks can work ( same goes for musk against xbow)

Dave_12: walk and shoot; i.e, fire a salvo, then move into the enemy formation. You'll naturally hit melee at some point.

Inst wrote:Dave_12: walk and shoot; i.e, fire a salvo, then move into the enemy formation. You'll naturally hit melee at some point.

You mean hit and run I think. Well, if you hit and run with your jans towards his musks, he can also just hit and run his musks away from your jans, in the exact same way. So you'll theoretically never hit melee.
Hit and running is usually interesting when your unit has more range and a fast enough shooting animation. Having a faster unit is also very useful.

That assumes the opponent knows how to counter it. Sepoys, likewise, have relatively high melee damage. The funny thing is, though, Sepoys don't want to tangle with Janissaries because up close, Jannisaries will win due to higher HP, while Sepoys have superior ranged attack.

That assumes the opponent knows basic micro. Honestly, hit-and-run might be the first micro trick that people learn. For example, hit and running musks with skirms is a basic.
Going in melee with a musketeer-type unit against another musketeer-type unit, regardless of stats, is not viable. Any decent player will hit and run these melee musks/jans/whatever with his own musks.

Inst wrote:That assumes the opponent knows how to counter it. Sepoys, likewise, have relatively high melee damage. The funny thing is, though, Sepoys don't want to tangle with Janissaries because up close, Jannisaries will win due to higher HP, while Sepoys have superior ranged attack.

Those musk wars are usually about who has more musk or better upgrades and therefore can snowball better. I saw u do a lot of math in your posts. Math is good but especially when it comes to units, it is not what reflects the reality in a lot of situations. There are also very important stats like speed or range that you cant rly cover up with math. In addition to that the reloade animation is very important, as it sometimes allows you to get shots on your enemy before he can do. Melee units often have pathing issues, which sometimes (in worst case) leads to units running around a lot more than actually fighting.

The point is that you're not on melee mode; you're returning fire as much as your opponent is kiting you. It's micro-intensive and you're forcing your opponent to move to avoid melee, i.e, they have to micro as well. To be frank, the damage advantage is only roughly 20% in the Jannisary's case, factoring in melee resistance. Doing the math properly, Sepoys, Ashigaru, and Musketeers actually deal more damage in ranged than in melee, and when you're in melee, you lose the ability to focus fire. The only great advantage of a bayonet push, though, is that it tends to slow the opponent's force down, making it easier to destroy them if you're numerically superior.

Really, no one goes melee with jans against musks, that's just wrong. However, if you have more mass, you will of course hit and run your jans towards his musketeers while he's trying to run away, so that you can shoot as many volleys as possible to his army before he's out of range.

tedere12 wrote:Gendarmes
counter:all
get countered by: -

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