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I've watched some _H2O gameplay recently where he recommends Kami even if trying to hold off an aggressive rush because it's "such a big deal." However, if you can only get up like 90 shrine pop vs Russia before 20 strelets and 5 cossacks parade into your base is it really worth having compared to 2 vill or 300 wood? I'm inclined to listen to _H2O but I feel like Kami doesn't give as much of an immediate boost for holding off the initial pressure as 2 vill, 300 wood, or simply saving the shipment for II. Can somebody explain please?

I suspect opening stable and going for Japanese consulate instead of the Portuguese one is the way to go. At the very least it is a viable option.

Gendarme wrote:I suspect opening stable and going for Japanese consulate instead of the Portuguese one is the way to go. At the very least it is a viable option.

I sometimes do this with 300w start and Toshogu, but it still feels too slow with Kami

You could also try cancelling Portuguese consulate when you're ~halfway aged up. It takes 60 seconds to cancel allies, so if you time it right you can still place a military building for 170w and then immediately switch to Japanese consulate and train clubs.

As for Kami, I find it depends a little bit on the map and the treasures. If you get 1 or 2 decent wood treasures, Kami becomes a lot better than the alternatives, in my opinion.

Kami is a better lategame card, and you must have 200 pop/close to 200 pop of shrines to make it pay off. 300w and 2 villagers are good cards if you are planning to make a lot of units early on to hold the rush and go for some timing. I prefer 300 wood because sending 2 villagers means you will run out of food from the cherry orchards sooner, also you gather less wood and get XP from the shrines which means that you have more efficient early game. 3 fishing boat is better card in most of the quicksearch maps, better than kami even if u want to shrine boom. The reason is 3 boats equals almost 3 villagers (3 villagers without upgrades), which means you have a strong early game eco and can produce a lot of units early on easier, the 3 boats don't get harassed, your cherry bushes run out of food later and you won't be able to get more than 150 pop of shrines on hunts anyways.

Kami is overrated. Send 3 boats on water maps, on land maps it depends.

IntrepidExplorer wrote:I've watched some _H2O gameplay recently where he recommends Kami even if trying to hold off an aggressive rush because it's "such a big deal." However, if you can only get up like 90 shrine pop vs Russia before 20 strelets and 5 cossacks parade into your base is it really worth having compared to 2 vill or 300 wood? I'm inclined to listen to _H2O but I feel like Kami doesn't give as much of an immediate boost for holding off the initial pressure as 2 vill, 300 wood, or simply saving the shipment for II. Can somebody explain please?

The thing is that _H2O is really strong defensively, so he can afford using eco boost cards more easily than a lot of people.

yea I agree with yurashic, kami is super overrated. Vs russia id only send it on a map like siberia, and go 3 boats on water maps and 2 vil on land maps. There are really a lot of variations you can do vs Russia. You can go Kami/cm and make a lot of shrines, or you can go 2 vil jap cons and play aggressive, or you can go proxy stable and catch his stre if he goes stre or raid if he goes musk. Tons of options really and its okay to sacrifice eco early since you outscale later on.

^^

I'd even say H2O has the best base defense of any one player. He can't make Japan that good so they're probably a pretty weak civ.

Alternatives to kami are not that great since you need shrines anyway for pop space.
Russia is just tough client for Jap. Needs specifc counter builds and hope that Russia play isn't refined to the same extent.
Possible counter builds are club rush with stable start (tori gate) to kill an aggressive rush or kami+toshogu+stable with CM card instead of 600w.

Garja wrote:Alternatives to kami are not that great since you need shrines anyway for pop space.
Russia is just tough client for Jap. Needs specifc counter builds and hope that Russia play isn't refined to the same extent.
Possible counter builds are club rush with stable start (tori gate) to kill an aggressive rush or kami+toshogu+stable with CM card instead of 600w.

Is it even worth the 200w that early to make a Jap consulate if you go torii? I mean max you'll get out like 3 clubs cuz you don't have the 200 export from the Toshogu age up

well generally you send 300export. I suppose you can also do that with the toshogu wonder

One of the rare mu's where Russia actually has chance atm....