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tedere12 wrote:I prefer to do the 500f ageup and 5 4 13

Post rec then, please.

richard wrote:

tedere12 wrote:I prefer to do the 500f ageup and 5 4 13

Post rec then, please.

I don't have a rec but if someone is willing to play this mu and get rekt, im here

On Florida, I think going 500f might just be the way to go. Don't really see what you'd do with 400w. Unless you're refraining from pressuring at all.

momuuu wrote:On Florida, I think going 500f might just be the way to go. Don't really see what you'd do with 400w. Unless you're refraining from pressuring at all.

You can also age with 400W, send 700F and produce lots of early strelets from these ressources. Dont need 500f if you have 700f.

Then send 5 Coss as second age II card and ATTAACK.

But as already pointed out in this thread, this is not recommended because india ages earlier now and has too much time to set up properly for that attack.

I'd say that plays into india's advantage. Even though india can definitely survive an early push from russia, it isn't really pretty and actually also costs india quite a bit. If you don't really overcommit as russia, then I definitely think it can be worth it. I think if you age 400w and then go 700f then you're not playing to your strengths and not using the fact that india doesn't have the ability to cav start.

momuuu wrote:I'd say that plays into india's advantage. Even though india can definitely survive an early push from russia, it isn't really pretty and actually also costs india quite a bit. If you don't really overcommit as russia, then I definitely think it can be worth it. I think if you age 400w and then go 700f then you're not playing to your strengths and not using the fact that india doesn't have the ability to cav start.

I m sorry, I dont understand that argumentation at all.

Which are the axioms underlying your argumentation?

tedere12 wrote:

richard wrote:

tedere12 wrote:I prefer to do the 500f ageup and 5 4 13

Post rec then, please.

I don't have a rec but if someone is willing to play this mu and get rekt, im here

Let s meet online with Jerom_.

Tedere: Russia, 500f ageup and 5 4 13

Jerom_: India, getting rekt

Me: Observe that.

ok, I actually did some tests, on single player where i had the restart option to play the same spawn several times, I tested with a pretty lucky age1, wood start with a 40 gold tres in base + 100f treasure. did civil servants then hunting eagles, age without idle time with 4 vills on wonder, @4:50 one time, 4:45 the other (did twice just to be sure..) then in the same spawn with the same tres, but only with eagles, i got 4 mins ageing with 4 vills. Thats a huge diference, having the 505050 upgrade ready early is nice, but you need 4 idle vills (on wonder) during age up to pay for the time lost, and still age a bit later. Im not sure if its worth it to go for early civil servants, unless you get gold tres early. (in a less ideal scenario where you chop the whole extra 75g75w and dont get free 100f you get really behind in time)

lemmings121 wrote:ok, I actually did some tests, on single player where i had the restart option to play the same spawn several times, I tested with a pretty lucky age1, wood start with a 40 gold tres in base + 100f treasure. did civil servants then hunting eagles, age without idle time with 4 vills on wonder, @4:50 one time, 4:45 the other (did twice just to be sure..) then in the same spawn with the same tres, but only with eagles, i got 4 mins ageing with 4 vills. Thats a huge diference, having the 505050 upgrade ready early is nice, but you need 4 idle vills (on wonder) during age up to pay for the time lost, and still age a bit later. Im not sure if its worth it to go for early civil servants, unless you get gold tres early. (in a less ideal scenario where you chop the whole extra 75g75w and dont get free 100f you get really behind in time)

Very nice, thanks. So you got

4:00 with Hunting Eagles, with 4 Vills on wonder, with treasure for Eagles.
4:45-4:50 in other cases.

Now we can compare these times in defending the following build, which i upload here (it is a tournament match me vs. RSY -- Captain level). The idea of the attack is simple: As i already pointed out a few posts above, you can age with 400w, send 700f and invest all these ressources in army, then send 5 Coss as 2nd age II shipment and ATTAACK. This results in a 6:30 timing push with 5 coss, 20 strelets + 10 musks. Now compare: If India ages at 5:00 -- how well can they set up to defend the attack? If India ages at 4:00 -- how well can they set up to defend the attack then?

BTW: Jerom_ sais it doesnt play into your strengths if you do that vs. india, but he still didnt state his axioms underlying his argumentation. In my opinion, now our result is, that this build on Florida is not viable, because india ages to early here. But then diarouga comes and asks -- really? why would they?, without thinking probably. Just talking.

The 50/50/50 is definitely not worth it. The food up, provided that you have a gold treasure (which you have most of the time on florida), is very good. If you get it early, it should affect your food gathering on the 700/800f required for age up, which means you get around 35-40f for free from the upgrade, and that already makes up for the 25w spent on it, so you don't age up any later, and you have slightly better eco.

Wait, is it worth it to age with 4vills on the wonder ever?

macacoalbino wrote:Wait, is it worth it to age with 4vills on the wonder ever?

Imo you should avoid it, I would rather cut vills at 14 to make sure to age with 1 or 2 on wonder at a reasonable time. But if you go for a tp start like some players like to do with wood start, or do the 50/50/50up in florida, you need 4 vills just to age at 5 mins.

With karni always do 4v. Vs aggressive civs also go 3-4v agra. People overstimate the inefficiency of using 4v and understimate the benefits.

lemmings121 wrote:

macacoalbino wrote:Wait, is it worth it to age with 4vills on the wonder ever?

Imo you should avoid it, I would rather cut vills at 14 to make sure to age with 1 or 2 on wonder at a reasonable time.

From the mathematical point of view, cutting vills is worse than putting extra vills on wonder, for the following reason:

Putting an extra vill on wonder means you lose constant amount of ressources (the ressources that vill would have gathered while he in fact was on wonder).

Cutting vills means you lose linear amount of ressources over time. (Considering an infinitely long game, you lose more and more ressources over time. The total amount of ressources in reality still is finite ofc, because games are finite).

richard wrote:

lemmings121 wrote:

macacoalbino wrote:Wait, is it worth it to age with 4vills on the wonder ever?

Imo you should avoid it, I would rather cut vills at 14 to make sure to age with 1 or 2 on wonder at a reasonable time.

From the mathematical point of view, cutting vills is worse than putting extra vills on wonder, for the following reason:

Putting an extra vill on wonder means you lose constant amount of ressources (the ressources that vill would have gathered while he in fact was on wonder).

Cutting vills means you lose linear amount of ressources over time. (Considering an infinitely long game, you lose more and more ressources over time. The total amount of ressources in reality still is finite ofc, because games are finite).

Dont forget to consider that having extra vills on wonder means you gather less during transition which in turn means less (or delayed) market upgrades as well.
Forgoing a vill to get a decent ageup time and get better upgrades may be more effective then, gotta do the math to be sure

Also transition time with 4 vill would be smaller, and the first age 2 card would be faster in one of the options... there are so many variables to this...

macacoalbino wrote:

richard wrote:

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lemmings121 wrote:

macacoalbino wrote:Wait, is it worth it to age with 4vills on the wonder ever?

Imo you should avoid it, I would rather cut vills at 14 to make sure to age with 1 or 2 on wonder at a reasonable time.

From the mathematical point of view, cutting vills is worse than putting extra vills on wonder, for the following reason:

Putting an extra vill on wonder means you lose constant amount of ressources (the ressources that vill would have gathered while he in fact was on wonder).

Cutting vills means you lose linear amount of ressources over time. (Considering an infinitely long game, you lose more and more ressources over time. The total amount of ressources in reality still is finite ofc, because games are finite).

Dont forget to consider that having extra vills on wonder means you gather less during transition which in turn means less (or delayed) market upgrades as well.
Forgoing a vill to get a decent ageup time and get better upgrades may be more effective then, gotta do the math to be sure

Researching a market upgrade later also loses you only constant amount of ressources.

For example: Imagine you are Russia and you have 10 vills on food in early colonial age. If you research steel traps at 6:00 instead of 5:00, you gather 100food less. (Explanation: Steel Traps increases food gather rate from 55f/min to 65f/min, which means that each vill gathers 10 food less in one minute)