MU of the week: List

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France [Armag] diarouga
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Re: MU of the week: List

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

rsy wrote:I want to suggest India vs Iroquois cuz iirc there was some debate between somppu and diarouga on whether iro is a good counter to ind or not and i think we never reached a conclusion. Plus its a cool mu that we don't see too often

There was a conclusion : Iro counters India.
We saw that MU during the LAN (kaiser vs tabben where kaiser threw his lead), and two times during the 3 civ cup. Kaiser stomped in one game, and threw the over one.
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Re: MU of the week: List

Post by dansil92 »

Iro v sioux would be a crazy matchup and I'd like to watch that.

Also Aztec-iro
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Re: MU of the week: List

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Aztec vs Iro is hopeless so wouldn't be very interesting.
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Re: MU of the week: List

Post by bwinner »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
rsy wrote:I want to suggest India vs Iroquois cuz iirc there was some debate between somppu and diarouga on whether iro is a good counter to ind or not and i think we never reached a conclusion. Plus its a cool mu that we don't see too often

There was a conclusion : Iro counters India.
We saw that MU during the LAN (kaiser vs tabben where kaiser threw his lead), and two times during the 3 civ cup. Kaiser stomped in one game, and threw the over one.

So India won 2-1 and it proved iro wins ?
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Re: MU of the week: List

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

bwinner wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:
rsy wrote:I want to suggest India vs Iroquois cuz iirc there was some debate between somppu and diarouga on whether iro is a good counter to ind or not and i think we never reached a conclusion. Plus its a cool mu that we don't see too often

There was a conclusion : Iro counters India.
We saw that MU during the LAN (kaiser vs tabben where kaiser threw his lead), and two times during the 3 civ cup. Kaiser stomped in one game, and threw the over one.

So India won 2-1 and it proved iro wins ?

Score doesn't matter if people throw. The conclusion is that Iro counteres India because the 3 people involved in the argument (kaiser, somppu and me) concluded that Iro was better.
Anyway, Iro dominated in these 3 games so these games show that Iro is better ye.
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Re: MU of the week: List

Post by bwinner »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
bwinner wrote:
Show hidden quotes

So India won 2-1 and it proved iro wins ?

Score doesn't matter if people throw. The conclusion is that Iro counteres India because the 3 people involved in the argument (kaiser, somppu and me) concluded that Iro was better.
Anyway, Iro dominated in these 3 games so these games show that Iro is better ye.

I am never convinced if the results are not here. I don't say it's wrong but it worth more tests
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Re: MU of the week: List

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

bwinner wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Show hidden quotes

Score doesn't matter if people throw. The conclusion is that Iro counteres India because the 3 people involved in the argument (kaiser, somppu and me) concluded that Iro was better.
Anyway, Iro dominated in these 3 games so these games show that Iro is better ye.

I am never convinced if the results are not here. I don't say it's wrong but it worth more tests

You can test if you want, but all the top players think that it is Iro favoured, so there might be some truth.
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Re: MU of the week: List

Post by Astaroth »

Meta and views change though, right? Also, people in these 3 games did vastly different strats. E.g. tabben in one game went halfmap/forward agra with fairly aggressive build. In the other game, he turtles up and builds more units against essentially a naked iro FF. Now I am not claiming to be an expert by any means, but surely there are different variations which haven't been tried? Note that many strats like e.g. the ceasefire FF haven't been too common until recently.

If Iro goes naked FF, maybe India should go (semi-)FF into ceasefire rather than boom in Age2? Or push hard/contain in Age2?

At least from these games it does seem a bit rock-paper-scissors: Iro semi FF with some tomas for defense is stronger than an India age2 timing push with lots of cav (useless against the tomas). Iro naked FF is stronger than India age2 boom. But what if in the first game, tabben had scouted, not made as much cav and instead map control semi-FFed himself faster? And in game2 had gone FF himself or push much harder in age2 (rather than defensive agra)?
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Re: MU of the week: List

Post by iNcog »

Is Dutch vs Spain a rofl stomp? Maybe we can get one for this match up
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Re: MU of the week: List

Post by chronique »

I want spain vs china because i have no idea what can i do with spain. Rly i try everything and its a desaster. I found this mu more difficult than spain - brit
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Re: MU of the week: List

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

iNcog wrote:Is Dutch vs Spain a rofl stomp? Maybe we can get one for this match up
No it's not. Some people (WickedCossack) even think it is Dutch favoured.
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Re: MU of the week: List

Post by iNcog »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
iNcog wrote:Is Dutch vs Spain a rofl stomp? Maybe we can get one for this match up
No it's not. Some people (WickedCossack) even think it is Dutch favoured.
I didn't think it'd be but I can't figure out this match up for shit.

Of course I'm probably just getting outclassed by the Spanish player.
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I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
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Re: MU of the week: List

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

chronique wrote:I want spain vs china because i have no idea what can i do with spain. Rly i try everything and its a desaster. I found this mu more difficult than spain - brit
The MU is quite bad for Spain but it's not impossible to win it.
The all in ff is hard to deal with, and revolt is scary as well.
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Re: MU of the week: List

Post by dansil92 »

Dealing with the falcs early can be a huge pain for dutch (ruyters are decidedly underwhelming at doing this) but if dutch can remove those quickly (minutemen pop, good focus fire, etc.) Then yeah its an easy game for dutch generally after that... revolt is big time scary tho for dutch to hold like diarouga said, so you always have to watch for that
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Re: MU of the week: List

Post by Garja »

revolt shouldnt really be a problem for dutch
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Re: MU of the week: List

Post by dansil92 »

Considering revolt militia do 48 damage per shot to ruyters, which only have 10rr, and entirely lacks a standard musk to counter the imperial huss... i would legit LOVE to see dutch actually hold a revolt barring the church FI build
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Re: MU of the week: List

Post by Oliveza »

dansil92 wrote:Considering revolt militia do 48 damage per shot to ruyters, which only have 10rr, and entirely lacks a standard musk to counter the imperial huss... i would legit LOVE to see dutch actually hold a revolt barring the church FI build
If dutch has Arsenal ups (14range ruyters) and he can kite well (pull skirms with goons)he wins vs std revo.
Ofc he also Needs to scout it and not overboom and get caught off guard.
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Re: MU of the week: List

Post by chronique »

[Armag] diarouga wrote: The MU is quite bad for Spain but it's not impossible to win it.
The all in ff is hard to deal with, and revolt is scary as well.
I don't want revo (or occasionaly), i need a true and safe bo. I dont understand why peaple said all in ff is good vs china, you cant do anything when you push in china base with building everywhere, monk, mm and vili if he want play safe.
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Re: MU of the week: List

Post by Garja »

dansil92 wrote:Considering revolt militia do 48 damage per shot to ruyters, which only have 10rr, and entirely lacks a standard musk to counter the imperial huss... i would legit LOVE to see dutch actually hold a revolt barring the church FI build
Just more mass and a bit of walling if necessary. Eventually revo is out of steam
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Re: MU of the week: List

Post by Kaiserklein »

I really think Dutch is one of the civs that have an easier time beating an otto revolt
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LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
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Re: MU of the week: List

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Kaiserklein wrote:I really think Dutch is one of the civs that have an easier time beating an otto revolt
Why ? To me it seems harder than as France or Germany.
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Re: MU of the week: List

Post by chronique »

Why not use the fort vs otto? Fort + goon + coulv can shit on revo ez, and its not a big deal to have the fort in your deck.
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Re: MU of the week: List

Post by Kaiserklein »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Kaiserklein wrote:I really think Dutch is one of the civs that have an easier time beating an otto revolt
Why ? To me it seems harder than as France or Germany.
Probably harder as germany because of wws. Easier as fr I agree. My point is that dutch has an easier time holding otto revolt than average because revolt gives them time to go for their 4 banks or whatever and spam shit
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LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
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Re: MU of the week: List

Post by ratislav »

What about ports vs dutch?
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Re: MU of the week: List

Post by Mr_Bramboy »

ratislav wrote:What about ports vs dutch?
What about it?

It's a very hard matchup for ports in late fortress because their skirmishers are completely outclassed by Dutch's skirmishers. Ports can't fight the skirm war and therefore has to resort to a window with hand cavalry, which is always hard to do. On a good water map ports has the advantage.

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