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MU of the week: Iroquois versus China on Manchac
Posted: 09 Apr 2018, 17:06
by [Armag] diarouga
Welcome to MU of the week. Every week a thread will be opened where we go over a certain match, set on a certain map. Hopefully the discussion will be in depth and top players will share their insight. Replays are definitely welcome so that people may support what they have to say. To make things even more interesting and engaging, we'll set the match-up on a certain map.
This week's featured match-up is Iroquois versus China, the map is Manchac.
Welcome! Credit for this idea goes to @
kami_ryu @
lemmings121 as well as @
musketeer925 & @
BrookG building upon it. They are the masterminds behind this pretty nice idea!
Re: MU of the week: Iroquois versus China on Manchac
Posted: 09 Apr 2018, 17:12
by yemshi
Who fired kami
Re: MU of the week: Iroquois versus China on Manchac
Posted: 09 Apr 2018, 17:17
by tedere12
imo its a good mu for iroquois. A 4 kanya followed up by eco play and staying in age2 or a naked ff both had me troubled as china. On RE I think this mu is completely hopeless, on EP I think china might get away with a naked ff build and very tight micro.
Re: MU of the week: Iroquois versus China on Manchac
Posted: 09 Apr 2018, 17:21
by kami_ryu
yemshi wrote::sad: Who fired kami
I was too lazy and told diarouga that he could take on this project. It doesn't really matter who posts, as long as it gets posted.
@
Diarouga Try to at least put the map in the OP, it just looks kind of better. e.g.
Code: Select all
[img]http://eso-community.net/images/aoe3/maps/hudson_bay.png[/img]
Re: MU of the week: Iroquois versus China on Manchac
Posted: 09 Apr 2018, 17:28
by [Armag] diarouga
kami_ryu wrote:@
Diarouga Try to at least put the map in the OP, it just looks kind of better. e.g.
Code: Select all
[img]http://eso-community.net/images/aoe3/maps/hudson_bay.png[/img]
Thanks, I didn't know how to do this :)
Re: MU of the week: Iroquois versus China on Manchac
Posted: 09 Apr 2018, 17:29
by deleted_user
8 bows 9 pike 700g ez
Scout and if he naked FFs raze his TP. He might be so bold as to build a second mid map.
Re: MU of the week: Iroquois versus China on Manchac
Posted: 09 Apr 2018, 17:30
by [Armag] diarouga
Well it's on the EP of course.
I think it's Iro favoured because the 4kanyas/5v/600c is great, however China can win if Iro makes some mistakes. The chinese player should definitely ff.
@
tedere12 I'm not sure age 2 play does well in this MU
Re: MU of the week: Iroquois versus China on Manchac
Posted: 09 Apr 2018, 17:32
by Lukas_L99
Age 2 iro is pretty bad on ep imo :/
Re: MU of the week: Iroquois versus China on Manchac
Posted: 09 Apr 2018, 17:35
by yemshi
deleted_user wrote:8 bows 9 pike 700g ez
Scout and if he naked FFs raze his TP. He might be so bold as to build a second mid map.
I actually like to 8 bow, 9 pike, (7 steppe),(300 export) and just gather all res to age III and skip an age II vill. Same as vs India btw.
That's @
deleted_user s build
Re: MU of the week: Iroquois versus China on Manchac
Posted: 09 Apr 2018, 17:36
by deleted_user
Can iro really just semi ff in this MU? 4 kanye not very scary. I'm trying to think of civs which can just let China FF and be fine with it and they're all better eco civs than Iro, civs like Dutch, Brit, maybe Port. I always thought pressuring china was kind of needed because their age 3 unit spam is so good and their economy is far from bad with Porcelain Tower.
Re: MU of the week: Iroquois versus China on Manchac
Posted: 09 Apr 2018, 17:39
by deleted_user
yemshi wrote:deleted_user wrote:8 bows 9 pike 700g ez
Scout and if he naked FFs raze his TP. He might be so bold as to build a second mid map.
I actually like to 8 bow, 9 pike, (7 steppe),(300 export) and just gather all res to age III and skip an age II vill. Same as vs India btw.
That's @
deleted_user s build
7 steppe is kind of just a bad card vs Iro. It's okay vs Russia if they Strelet spam and okay vs Japan to catch their 10 yumi out of position trying to snipe sieging pikes but otherwise they're just bad units. 700g is needed or else you're going to age too late, and 300 export is okay if you're playing really prolonged colonial, but 200w for cons is difficult to fit in without 700w, and prolonged colonial vs Iro is a bad idea.
Keep in mind this is all with an early TP so usually you can 8 bow 9 pike 700g 700w and still have a shipment in age 3. It's enough units to hold a rush and/or timing and it's enough units to kill a TP if he doesn't do the aforementioned. I usually make a rax and train a couple more batches too.
I don't think I've ever played this MU though lol so..
I just believe China is generally stronger than others give credit.
Re: MU of the week: Iroquois versus China on Manchac
Posted: 09 Apr 2018, 17:41
by yurashic
Slightly Iro favoured, China can win this with melee units if they get a good surround.
Re: MU of the week: Iroquois versus China on Manchac
Posted: 09 Apr 2018, 17:48
by [Armag] diarouga
yemshi wrote:deleted_user wrote:8 bows 9 pike 700g ez
Scout and if he naked FFs raze his TP. He might be so bold as to build a second mid map.
I actually like to 8 bow, 9 pike, (7 steppe),(300 export) and just gather all res to age III and skip an age II vill. Same as vs India btw.
That's @
deleted_user s build
It's good in some MUs but pretty bad vs Iro because the 10tomas+4kanyas will hold anything and it's just going to slow you.
Re: MU of the week: Iroquois versus China on Manchac
Posted: 09 Apr 2018, 17:49
by deleted_user0
i remember practicing this mu with hazza while back, china won it most games. specially if iro did semi or ff. china had hardest time vs agressive iro, but not rush, just forward warhut + stable 600w opening and then kanya infantry mix.
Re: MU of the week: Iroquois versus China on Manchac
Posted: 09 Apr 2018, 17:50
by deleted_user0
[Armag] diarouga wrote:yemshi wrote:deleted_user wrote:8 bows 9 pike 700g ez
Scout and if he naked FFs raze his TP. He might be so bold as to build a second mid map.
I actually like to 8 bow, 9 pike, (7 steppe),(300 export) and just gather all res to age III and skip an age II vill. Same as vs India btw.
That's @
deleted_user s build
It's good in some MUs but pretty bad vs Iro because the 10tomas+4kanyas will hold anything and it's just going to slow you.
4 kanya 10 toma don't actually beat 8 bow 9 pike + disciples.
Re: MU of the week: Iroquois versus China on Manchac
Posted: 09 Apr 2018, 17:55
by tedere12
[Armag] diarouga wrote:Well it's on the EP of course.
I think it's Iro favoured because the 4kanyas/5v/600c is great, however China can win if Iro makes some mistakes. The chinese player should definitely ff.
@
tedere12 I'm not sure age 2 play does well in this MU
I think age 2 might work on a stagecoach tp map if iro get a good start, idling a lot of villagers with their early 4 kanya and tomas. Iro have a lot of age2 upgrades but I am not a decent iro player and have no experience from iro side at all. Maybe the wood cost on kanya is not allowing them to mass enough and hit a timing
Re: MU of the week: Iroquois versus China on Manchac
Posted: 09 Apr 2018, 17:55
by [Armag] diarouga
umeu wrote:[Armag] diarouga wrote:yemshi wrote:deleted_user wrote:8 bows 9 pike 700g ez
Scout and if he naked FFs raze his TP. He might be so bold as to build a second mid map.
I actually like to 8 bow, 9 pike, (7 steppe),(300 export) and just gather all res to age III and skip an age II vill. Same as vs India btw.
That's @
deleted_user s build
It's good in some MUs but pretty bad vs Iro because the 10tomas+4kanyas will hold anything and it's just going to slow you.
4 kanya 10 toma don't actually beat 8 bow 9 pike + disciples.
If you see he's going bow/pike you make 5 aennas instead of 5 tomas actually. You also have to consider that the Iroquois is going to have the wh support, and the WC with crackshots so that should be enough to hold. If it isn't, you can always make more units.
Re: MU of the week: Iroquois versus China on Manchac
Posted: 09 Apr 2018, 17:56
by [Armag] diarouga
tedere12 wrote:[Armag] diarouga wrote:Well it's on the EP of course.
I think it's Iro favoured because the 4kanyas/5v/600c is great, however China can win if Iro makes some mistakes. The chinese player should definitely ff.
@
tedere12 I'm not sure age 2 play does well in this MU
I think age 2 might work on a stagecoach tp map if iro get a good start, idling a lot of villagers with their early 4 kanya and tomas. Iro have a lot of age2 upgrades but I am not a decent iro player and have no experience from iro side at all. Maybe the wood cost on kanya is not allowing them to mass enough and hit a timing
Well you can also semi ff with stagecoach and then spam units in age 3.
Re: MU of the week: Iroquois versus China on Manchac
Posted: 09 Apr 2018, 17:56
by deleted_user0
[Armag] diarouga wrote:umeu wrote:[Armag] diarouga wrote:yemshi wrote:deleted_user wrote:8 bows 9 pike 700g ez
Scout and if he naked FFs raze his TP. He might be so bold as to build a second mid map.
I actually like to 8 bow, 9 pike, (7 steppe),(300 export) and just gather all res to age III and skip an age II vill. Same as vs India btw.
That's @
deleted_user s build
It's good in some MUs but pretty bad vs Iro because the 10tomas+4kanyas will hold anything and it's just going to slow you.
4 kanya 10 toma don't actually beat 8 bow 9 pike + disciples.
If you see he's going bow/pike you make 5 aennas instead of 5 tomas actually. You also have to consider that the Iroquois is going to have the wh support, and the WC with crackshots so that should be enough to hold. If it isn't, you can always make more units.
ye hazza did this too, he lost his warhut pretty much every time.
Re: MU of the week: Iroquois versus China on Manchac
Posted: 09 Apr 2018, 17:56
by rsy
umeu wrote:[Armag] diarouga wrote:yemshi wrote:deleted_user wrote:8 bows 9 pike 700g ez
Scout and if he naked FFs raze his TP. He might be so bold as to build a second mid map.
I actually like to 8 bow, 9 pike, (7 steppe),(300 export) and just gather all res to age III and skip an age II vill. Same as vs India btw.
That's @
deleted_user s build
It's good in some MUs but pretty bad vs Iro because the 10tomas+4kanyas will hold anything and it's just going to slow you.
4 kanya 10 toma don't actually beat 8 bow 9 pike + disciples.
I suppose in base they can hold it off with tc fire, warhut fire, explorer crackshot all on bows and then some kiting with tomas. If iro fb tho, I am not very sure but I still don't think that many units will kill the warhut
Re: MU of the week: Iroquois versus China on Manchac
Posted: 09 Apr 2018, 17:58
by deleted_user0
rsy wrote:umeu wrote:[Armag] diarouga wrote:yemshi wrote:deleted_user wrote:8 bows 9 pike 700g ez
Scout and if he naked FFs raze his TP. He might be so bold as to build a second mid map.
I actually like to 8 bow, 9 pike, (7 steppe),(300 export) and just gather all res to age III and skip an age II vill. Same as vs India btw.
That's @
deleted_user s build
It's good in some MUs but pretty bad vs Iro because the 10tomas+4kanyas will hold anything and it's just going to slow you.
4 kanya 10 toma don't actually beat 8 bow 9 pike + disciples.
I suppose in base they can hold it off with tc fire, warhut fire, explorer crackshot all on bows and then some kiting with tomas. If iro fb tho, I am not very sure but I still don't think that many units will kill the warhut
ye ofcourse, but china wouldnt go into iro's base. if they are in base its already pretty much win for china. they just kill 1 or 2 tps. and then go back. and sit in their own base until they have unkillable deathball
Re: MU of the week: Iroquois versus China on Manchac
Posted: 09 Apr 2018, 20:48
by Garja
4kanya 600w or 4kanya 5v. It's important to be ready for china colo play because in that case 4kanya and few toma won't be enough to defend an fb or in general to control the game.
Semi FF from Iro should work well in case China just FF even though later on China mass and combo becomes scary. Especially 41% rr cav are a pain in the ass when you have goon as anticav so you need something else and I'd say kanya > toma for that purpose. Then again China also have changdao and the monk to toss in. I think Iro has to abuse their superior unit quality in early fortress and pick as many free kills as they can. At the same time tho they must be careful to not overextend or can be punished by just a shipment pop.
4kanya semi FFs generally make iro age a bit too slow (even with 2 TPs) so it might be more wise to just naked FF and take 2 TPs as a way to stil retain some advantage (1 TP FF is ok but nothing special vs China FF). However, China can FI if Iro is too passive and then stuff like industrial flying crows are hard to deal with since Iro has no cannons in fortress age.
Cav semi (600w 5v 600g or 600w 4kanya 5v) is probably better than toma semi vs china because it's harder for china to punish that with colo play and Iro has 2-3 infantry shipments + toma BB if really in trouble.
Map is pretty standard. Not exactly the best one to take advantage of early map control (lot of extra resources are on the sides of the TC and none is in the middle) and also not greatest map for stagecoach. Mid-map pillars can screw China meelee units' pathing.
Re: MU of the week: Iroquois versus China on Manchac
Posted: 10 Apr 2018, 01:01
by Hazza54321
I even shipped 7 aenna before 600g but what do i know im a teamgame scrub
Re: MU of the week: Iroquois versus China on Manchac
Posted: 10 Apr 2018, 03:29
by deleted_user0
please show them hazza!
Re: MU of the week: Iroquois versus China on Manchac
Posted: 10 Apr 2018, 03:37
by gibson
umeu wrote:please show them hazza!
why can't the great iroqioush lammmer umeá teach them!