Greece tedere12
Jaeger
Posts: 2893
ESO: Tedere12
Location: Greece
Game: AoE Online
GameRanger ID: 4253320

18 May 2018, 09:53

Flail rush is the most macro intense build on aoe3. Especially the karni version. If you don't know, don't talk.
Image
User avatar
Netherlands momuuu
Ninja
Posts: 13655
Location: Utrecht, The Netherlands

18 May 2018, 16:20

If you get 5 seconds to calculate 2^15 that is hard. If you get 5 minutes to calculate some reasonable integral it is easy. Yet the latter is a more complex calculation.

Sc2 macro is hard because its fast. Aoe3 macro is easy because it is really slow. Its a bit more complex because you need to allocate villagers, however villager allocations are very intuitive and theres a ton of time to do it. The only 'hard' part of aoe3 is managing idle vills during a battle, and thats hard precisely because you have to be fast to do it and not because it is complex.

If aoe3 macro was truly hard, we'd see very big differences between good and medium players. Yet, I can never find a big difference in macro between good and mediocre players. For all its worth, Im a mediocre player with close to perfect macro.

"When life give you incompetence, participate in the betting" - Jerom, winner of autumn betting, 2016
"but wer eyiu playig a gainst someone as magnificent as jerom? thats wha ti thogutb jerom is a beaaitful human being"- Mr_Bramboy
User avatar
Italy Garja
ESOC Maps Team
Donator 02
Posts: 5984
ESO: Garja

18 May 2018, 16:56

momuuu wrote:If aoe3 macro was truly hard, we'd see very big differences between good and medium players. Yet, I can never find a big difference in macro between good and mediocre players. For all its worth, Im a mediocre player with close to perfect macro.

:hmm:
User avatar
India rsy
Howdah
Donator 01
Posts: 1240
ESO: Rsy
Location: USA
GameRanger ID: 665696

18 May 2018, 17:40

momuuu wrote:For all its worth, Im a mediocre player with close to perfect macro.

Wow holy ego post!
Anyway I don't believe you. Rec a teddy karni flail build and maybe I'll believe u. Till then you're just the baby who was crying when he lost games to a cap

Edit rofl went through the rest of the thread this is like a mega ego thread :lol: :lol: :lol: :hehe:
No Flag umeu
Gendarme
Posts: 8268

18 May 2018, 17:48

momuuu wrote:If you get 5 seconds to calculate 2^15 that is hard. If you get 5 minutes to calculate some reasonable integral it is easy. Yet the latter is a more complex calculation.

Sc2 macro is hard because its fast. Aoe3 macro is easy because it is really slow. Its a bit more complex because you need to allocate villagers, however villager allocations are very intuitive and theres a ton of time to do it. The only 'hard' part of aoe3 is managing idle vills during a battle, and thats hard precisely because you have to be fast to do it and not because it is complex.

If aoe3 macro was truly hard, we'd see very big differences between good and medium players. Yet, I can never find a big difference in macro between good and mediocre players. For all its worth, Im a mediocre player with close to perfect macro.


i'd say most aoe players actually suck at the res control part. ryan doesnt have exceptional macro for example. aizamk neither. rapha and mitoe are pretty good at it, but not the best, nor are they top mainly cuz of that.
User avatar
France [Armag] diarouga
Gendarme
Posts: 6861
Location: France

18 May 2018, 19:13

Yea true but that's because aoe3 isn't a competitive game. If we there was a pro scene, then I can tell you that we wouldn't see macro mistakes.
"Everyone knows that blowing infantry to shreds with heavy cannons is the most satisfying way to win." Boneng
User avatar
Italy Garja
ESOC Maps Team
Donator 02
Posts: 5984
ESO: Garja

18 May 2018, 20:15

Ye I agree there is lot of room from improvement for macro and micro. And game would be more funny and competitive imo if played at like 1.5 speed. Fast mode is like 3x? I think that's just too much for having actual lydecent play even at very high level.
User avatar
Netherlands momuuu
Ninja
Posts: 13655
Location: Utrecht, The Netherlands

18 May 2018, 20:43

rsy wrote:
momuuu wrote:For all its worth, Im a mediocre player with close to perfect macro.

Wow holy ego post!
Anyway I don't believe you. Rec a teddy karni flail build and maybe I'll believe u. Till then you're just the baby who was crying when he lost games to a cap

Edit rofl went through the rest of the thread this is like a mega ego thread :lol: :lol: :lol: :hehe:

Image

Isn't this close to perfect?

I mean, you dont get macro this close to perfect if its actually hard..

"When life give you incompetence, participate in the betting" - Jerom, winner of autumn betting, 2016
"but wer eyiu playig a gainst someone as magnificent as jerom? thats wha ti thogutb jerom is a beaaitful human being"- Mr_Bramboy
User avatar
Kiribati SirCallen
Gendarme
Posts: 6318
ESO: KTRAlN
Location: Midwest best west

18 May 2018, 21:15

A captain can have good macro. Screenshotting macro lol.
thank god for threads
and good screws
User avatar
Tuvalu gibson
Gendarme
Posts: 7725
Location: USA

18 May 2018, 21:50

if one screenshot proves someone has good macro than literally everyone over like 2nd lt has good macro
User avatar
Brazil macacoalbino
Lancer
Posts: 965
ESO: MacacoAlbino

18 May 2018, 21:54

momuuu wrote:
rsy wrote:
momuuu wrote:For all its worth, Im a mediocre player with close to perfect macro.

Wow holy ego post!
Anyway I don't believe you. Rec a teddy karni flail build and maybe I'll believe u. Till then you're just the baby who was crying when he lost games to a cap

Edit rofl went through the rest of the thread this is like a mega ego thread :lol: :lol: :lol: :hehe:

Image

Isn't this close to perfect?

I mean, you dont get macro this close to perfect if its actually hard..

Awful, look at that unspent XP
Kappa

Edit: This ego post was vs me wtf?! :hmm:
"Anything can happen. Just throw all of your points on the underdog (...). They are looking more like overdogs this tournament. Haha. A joke." - GS

twitch.tv/chumbo_grosso_
User avatar
India rsy
Howdah
Donator 01
Posts: 1240
ESO: Rsy
Location: USA
GameRanger ID: 665696

18 May 2018, 22:03

macacoalbino wrote:
momuuu wrote:
Show hidden quotes

Image

Isn't this close to perfect?

I mean, you dont get macro this close to perfect if its actually hard..

Aweful, look at that unspent XP
Kappa

BAM
User avatar
Kiribati SirCallen
Gendarme
Posts: 6318
ESO: KTRAlN
Location: Midwest best west

18 May 2018, 22:07

umeu wrote:
momuuu wrote:If you get 5 seconds to calculate 2^15 that is hard. If you get 5 minutes to calculate some reasonable integral it is easy. Yet the latter is a more complex calculation.

Sc2 macro is hard because its fast. Aoe3 macro is easy because it is really slow. Its a bit more complex because you need to allocate villagers, however villager allocations are very intuitive and theres a ton of time to do it. The only 'hard' part of aoe3 is managing idle vills during a battle, and thats hard precisely because you have to be fast to do it and not because it is complex.

If aoe3 macro was truly hard, we'd see very big differences between good and medium players. Yet, I can never find a big difference in macro between good and mediocre players. For all its worth, Im a mediocre player with close to perfect macro.


i'd say most aoe players actually suck at the res control part. ryan doesnt have exceptional macro for example. aizamk neither. rapha and mitoe are pretty good at it, but not the best, nor are they top mainly cuz of that.

The more things going on the harder it is to properly macro. I could spend all my attention in a game on having impeccable macro but just fail because I'm not being proactive or playing the game with tempo -- these are things good players do. The best do both to a high degree. Having perfect macro at any given point in time is nice but it's not super crucial. What's super crucial is having perfect macro for a deciding fight -- that Raph and Mitoe and good players do. If you don't have perfect macro but are picking off free units or getting in a raid, that's what matters, as long as you fix. Macro is honestly a little overrated if the player is making other things happen.
thank god for threads
and good screws
User avatar
Greece Googol
Howdah
Posts: 1231
ESO: Butifle
Location: Prague

18 May 2018, 22:07

rsy wrote:
macacoalbino wrote:
Show hidden quotes

Aweful, look at that unspent XP
Kappa

BAM


Sit down.
User avatar
India rsy
Howdah
Donator 01
Posts: 1240
ESO: Rsy
Location: USA
GameRanger ID: 665696

18 May 2018, 23:21

Googol wrote:
rsy wrote:
Show hidden quotes

BAM


Sit down.

Got heeeeeeem
Nigeria jgals
Dragoon
Posts: 287
ESO: jgals

19 May 2018, 05:24

you spend a lot of time in aoe2 cursing it's shit codebase (at least I do) and especially so when you play HD/forgotten/defintiive because you would think it would be a little less wonky and the only thing they upgraded wouldnt be just the graphics.

Units in aoe2 really seem to have a mind of their own.

AOE3 units can at times too, there are issues with certain units attack moves, which sucks becuase its some of the units where it is most critical, high damage melee like jaguar knights, lancers, dog soldiers but for the most part its way better than aoe2

Sorry for this post I just really wanted to bash aoe2

the thing that's weird is when I was a kid playing age of kings and conquerors I didn't notice all these flaws, or maybe my micro was just insanely better back then that i didn't have problems with atack move in aoe2. or maybe im just spoiled
User avatar
France [Armag] diarouga
Gendarme
Posts: 6861
Location: France

19 May 2018, 06:03

jgals wrote:you spend a lot of time in aoe2 cursing it's shit codebase (at least I do) and especially so when you play HD/forgotten/defintiive because you would think it would be a little less wonky and the only thing they upgraded wouldnt be just the graphics.

Units in aoe2 really seem to have a mind of their own.

AOE3 units can at times too, there are issues with certain units attack moves, which sucks becuase its some of the units where it is most critical, high damage melee like jaguar knights, lancers, dog soldiers but for the most part its way better than aoe2

Sorry for this post I just really wanted to bash aoe2

the thing that's weird is when I was a kid playing age of kings and conquerors I didn't notice all these flaws, or maybe my micro was just insanely better back then that i didn't have problems with atack move in aoe2. or maybe im just spoiled

There is no attack move on aoe2, here is your issue :biggrin:
"Everyone knows that blowing infantry to shreds with heavy cannons is the most satisfying way to win." Boneng
User avatar
Netherlands momuuu
Ninja
Posts: 13655
Location: Utrecht, The Netherlands

19 May 2018, 09:33

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
jgals wrote:you spend a lot of time in aoe2 cursing it's shit codebase (at least I do) and especially so when you play HD/forgotten/defintiive because you would think it would be a little less wonky and the only thing they upgraded wouldnt be just the graphics.

Units in aoe2 really seem to have a mind of their own.

AOE3 units can at times too, there are issues with certain units attack moves, which sucks becuase its some of the units where it is most critical, high damage melee like jaguar knights, lancers, dog soldiers but for the most part its way better than aoe2

Sorry for this post I just really wanted to bash aoe2

the thing that's weird is when I was a kid playing age of kings and conquerors I didn't notice all these flaws, or maybe my micro was just insanely better back then that i didn't have problems with atack move in aoe2. or maybe im just spoiled

There is no attack move on aoe2, here is your issue :biggrin:

Well, aoe2hd does have attack move and in the old aoe patrol functions as attack move right?

"When life give you incompetence, participate in the betting" - Jerom, winner of autumn betting, 2016
"but wer eyiu playig a gainst someone as magnificent as jerom? thats wha ti thogutb jerom is a beaaitful human being"- Mr_Bramboy
User avatar
France [Armag] diarouga
Gendarme
Posts: 6861
Location: France

19 May 2018, 10:31

momuuu wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:
jgals wrote:you spend a lot of time in aoe2 cursing it's shit codebase (at least I do) and especially so when you play HD/forgotten/defintiive because you would think it would be a little less wonky and the only thing they upgraded wouldnt be just the graphics.

Units in aoe2 really seem to have a mind of their own.

AOE3 units can at times too, there are issues with certain units attack moves, which sucks becuase its some of the units where it is most critical, high damage melee like jaguar knights, lancers, dog soldiers but for the most part its way better than aoe2

Sorry for this post I just really wanted to bash aoe2

the thing that's weird is when I was a kid playing age of kings and conquerors I didn't notice all these flaws, or maybe my micro was just insanely better back then that i didn't have problems with atack move in aoe2. or maybe im just spoiled

There is no attack move on aoe2, here is your issue :biggrin:

Well, aoe2hd does have attack move and in the old aoe patrol functions as attack move right?

Hum I wasn't aware that aoe2 hd had attack move. In the old version people use patrol as attack move but idk, it sucked when I tried to do it.
"Everyone knows that blowing infantry to shreds with heavy cannons is the most satisfying way to win." Boneng
User avatar
Sweden 91
Retired Contributor
Donator 01
Posts: 402

19 May 2018, 13:26

I agree that there's a lack of the beginner guides with "have 10 villagers on wood until you age up, then move to food"-type of instructions.

While I agree that "having a feeling for it" is the best way to macro, the question is more about those who don't have the time or energy to get this feeling. Or want to still have a good base build that you can slowly adapt from while getting there.

I am working on some stuff like this and might share it on esoc.
What
User avatar
Russia yurashic
Howdah
Posts: 1127
ESO: Yurashic
Location: Russia

19 May 2018, 13:31

91 wrote:I agree that there's a lack of the beginner guides with "have 10 villagers on wood until you age up, then move to food"-type of instructions.

While I agree that "having a feeling for it" is the best way to macro, the question is more about those who don't have the time or energy to get this feeling. Or want to still have a good base build that you can slowly adapt from while getting there.

I am working on some stuff like this and might share it on esoc.


Everything that makes you good at the game requires time investment, it just works this way.
User avatar
Sweden 91
Retired Contributor
Donator 01
Posts: 402

19 May 2018, 13:51

yurashic wrote:
91 wrote:I agree that there's a lack of the beginner guides with "have 10 villagers on wood until you age up, then move to food"-type of instructions.

While I agree that "having a feeling for it" is the best way to macro, the question is more about those who don't have the time or energy to get this feeling. Or want to still have a good base build that you can slowly adapt from while getting there.

I am working on some stuff like this and might share it on esoc.


Everything that makes you good at the game requires time investment, it just works this way.


Yes, exactly. I don't know if that's a counter argument or not, but I can clarify:
It's not necessarily about "becoming good", maybe you just want better flow in the game without spending hours getting used to mechanics. Some don't enjoy the villager management so much and want a shortcut, and that's fine if you ask me. After all the game is there for enjoyment, and we all enjoy different aspects of the game.

But one thing is for sure: The first time I play a new game, I will save 10-20 games of learning if I look up a simple BO to get the hang of it first. (I'm probably a bit slow, but please let me :P )
What
User avatar
Holy See Imperial Noob
Dragoon
Posts: 261
ESO: M1Karox/ImperialNoob
Location: Dresden, Germany

07 Jun 2018, 18:18

@Hipokondriako :flowers:

I had a similar idea last summer, but since I am a lazy noob who knows nothing, I halted the construction. :hmm: With a dedicated diagram program, however, making a clearer tree with real knots and nodes, even while taking things like a number of herds and the presence of water / TPs into account, would not be that hard; to the contrary, I think it would be fun for all involved.

Modulus Biggus Rooskis.JPG
Modulus Biggus Rooskis.JPG (168.96 KiB) Viewed 600 times


As to the intuitive skill "argument"... well, even the best players at some point could use graphic help materials. Imagine playing hundreds of games with vs without a visual strategy memorizing help. The former makes one learn faster and be happier with the game due to the transparency of goals. A written text has mostly one thing happening within it at any given time, so unless one is a big time poet, it should not be used to present simultaneous processes unless no other option is available. The current guides, which are a wall of text, are hard to compare and learn from for exactly this reason.

Why then not, as a community, arrange a writing of these trees? :arrow: Could be done as an open project for members, with moderators just having to approve changes to avoid trolls. Now this would make getting into the game easier for new players. :idea:
If bored or sad, check my Incredible Artillery Show to cheer yourself up! :biggrin:
http://eso-community.net/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=11543

Forum Info

Return to “Strategy”



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest