Discussion: Cherokee native upgrade

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France [Armag] diarouga
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Discussion: Cherokee native upgrade

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Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Cherokee Basket Weaving (100 Food, 100 Coin) (dock/market/mill/plantation upgrades don't cost wood)

What I wonder, is how useful would that be in a real game?
You're spending 200w+100f+100c to save 250w (if you get the 2 food ups and placer mine)

Pros:
* The native TP gives you building exp.
*The native TP gives you some map control
*You can fake a native rush, or even use the cherokee (like vs India to deal with sepoys)
*It allows you to get the 2nd gold upgrade for only 200f, which isn't an option else.
* If you sent ATP, it is totally viable since you'll trade 130w for 100f/100c assuming you don't get the 2nd gold up.

Cons:
*If you don't go for the 2nd gold upgrade, or mills/plant upgrades, you traded 50w for 100f/100c which is bad.
*You wasted time with your explorer.
*You'll most likely need a market in age 1. So it would only be viable on wood starts when you start with 200w.

What is your opinion about it?

Edit: From now on, every build which involves a Cheerokee TP is a rouga build ©
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France [Armag] diarouga
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Re: Discussion: Cherokee native upgrade

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Here is an example of the new meta rouga build
Attachments
[EP5 SP] diarouga[FR] vs Henri le Navigateur[PT] - ESOC Arkansas.age3yrec
(1 MiB) Downloaded 46 times
ESOC Arkansas
ESOC Arkansas
Rules: Supremacy (1v1)
Version: ESOC Patch 5.0
Length: 9 minutes
India Ashvin
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Re: Discussion: Cherokee native upgrade

Post by Ashvin »

I think it's super useful in water boom, because water games tend to go long and you most probably transition to mills and plantations. So you save 90 + 200w from docks, 150 + 335 from Mills and 300 + 400 + 600w from plantations, not considering market ups it save you 2k wood.

In 1v1 normal games which last 20 mins, they save you market ups only
1. If you make this tp in the beginning, which is kinda awkward against civs like France and Germany which do cav semi.
2. And then you market up in transition only after the upgrade is done.

I'm not convinced it is good in fast paced games because you are trading some XP for some 200-300w which may slow down your game who knows. Maybe this is civ specific
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Re: Discussion: Cherokee native upgrade

Post by bigsmoke »

It's a large investment tbh. If there was a TP I would rather have that. If there was a cherokee and no TP then I might go, but it would take a while to pay off, especially if its early
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Re: Discussion: Cherokee native upgrade

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

bigsmoke wrote:It's a large investment tbh. If there was a TP I would rather have that. If there was a cherokee and no TP then I might go, but it would take a while to pay off, especially if its early

As I said though, you're trading 200w/100c/100f for 250w, so taking a TP means you skip the market which is not an option.
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Re: Discussion: Cherokee native upgrade

Post by deleted_user »

Maybe viable for market ups in boomy MUs. Very viable in general for being a 200w cdb TC.
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Re: Discussion: Cherokee native upgrade

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

New India mirror build btw
rouga build copyright ©
Attachments
[EP5 SP] diarouga[IN] vs Cuauhtémoc[AZ] - ESOC Arkansas.age3yrec
rouga build copyright ©
(1.02 MiB) Downloaded 46 times
ESOC Arkansas
ESOC Arkansas
Rules: Supremacy (1v1)
Version: ESOC Patch 5.0
Length: 9 minutes
India Ashvin
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Re: Discussion: Cherokee native upgrade

Post by Ashvin »

deleted_user wrote:Maybe viable for market ups in boomy MUs. Very viable in general for being a 200w cdb TC.

Thats cree no?
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Re: Discussion: Cherokee native upgrade

Post by deleted_user »

Ashvin wrote:
deleted_user wrote:Maybe viable for market ups in boomy MUs. Very viable in general for being a 200w cdb TC.

Thats cree no?

Prove it
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Re: Discussion: Cherokee native upgrade

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Ashvin wrote:
deleted_user wrote:Maybe viable for market ups in boomy MUs. Very viable in general for being a 200w cdb TC.

Thats cree no?

Yes, that's cree, he has no clue. You have a 200w/200c upgrade for 4 vills which is worth in some MUs like India mirror.
The standard build is to go market and get the 50/50/50 and 150/150/150 upgs. It's better to get the Cherokee TP and get 4vills, then the 100f/100c upgrade for the market, and market up.

As India it's very interesting since you'll save 50+150+25+65+40+100=430 wood, so it would be interesting to spend 200w/100f/100c to get the market upgrades.
Thus, it's also worth it with Japan and China. With Japan especially since buildings are cheaper and TPs only cost 170w iirc.
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Re: Discussion: Cherokee native upgrade

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Post by deleted_user0 »

Its good to get both, thats why its good to get the tp. Its good for india but imo its best for iro. U get farm age1. Get cree 4v and market tech. Then u can get farm upgrades free of wood cost. Ofc it only works in greedy mus.
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Re: Discussion: Cherokee native upgrade

Post by deleted_user »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Ashvin wrote:
deleted_user wrote:Maybe viable for market ups in boomy MUs. Very viable in general for being a 200w cdb TC.

Thats cree no?

Yes, that's cree, he has no clue.

I was just testing him.
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Re: Discussion: Cherokee native upgrade

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

umeu wrote:Its good to get both, thats why its good to get the tp. Its good for india but imo its best for iro. U get farm age1. Get cree 4v and market tech. Then u can get farm upgrades free of wood cost. Ofc it only works in greedy mus.

Unfortunately there aren't a lot of greedy MUs for Iro, while India has a lot. Maybe vs India and Ports but that's it. It might be worth to build a plantation from the age 3 travois btw.
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Re: Discussion: Cherokee native upgrade

Post by deleted_user0 »

Yeah, if you have that cherokee tech for sure. I sometimes do it, but usually u need something else for it. Tho i havent played much ep iro. So i was talking about re iro more, they can go greedy in many mus.

Ports, dutch, sioux and china come to mind. India too, depending on map.
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Re: Discussion: Cherokee native upgrade

Post by Ashvin »

Watching your rec now makes me question it again. 600w > big trickle? I know 600w gives you flexibility but sending two wood cards feels so awkward. In real situations I might end up sending 5 sepoy when you sent the trickle.
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Re: Discussion: Cherokee native upgrade

Post by fei123456 »

why no amalgamation? 200f amalgamation is where cherokee really shines.
oh don't forget the 4 vills too.
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Re: Discussion: Cherokee native upgrade

Post by deleted_user »

Ashvin wrote:Watching your rec now makes me question it again. 600w > big trickle? I know 600w gives you flexibility but sending two wood cards feels so awkward. In real situations I might end up sending 5 sepoy when you sent the trickle.

What does 5 sepoy accomplish? Horrible mirror/vs aztec card.
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Re: Discussion: Cherokee native upgrade

Post by yemshi »

Ashvin wrote:Watching your rec now makes me question it again. 600w > big trickle? I know 600w gives you flexibility but sending two wood cards feels so awkward. In real situations I might end up sending 5 sepoy when you sent the trickle.

600w is always bad.
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Re: Discussion: Cherokee native upgrade

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

umeu wrote:Yeah, if you have that cherokee tech for sure. I sometimes do it, but usually u need something else for it. Tho i havent played much ep iro. So i was talking about re iro more, they can go greedy in many mus.

Ports, dutch, sioux and china come to mind. India too, depending on map.

Yea on the EP you can't go greedy vs Dutch/China
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Re: Discussion: Cherokee native upgrade

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Ashvin wrote:Watching your rec now makes me question it again. 600w > big trickle? I know 600w gives you flexibility but sending two wood cards feels so awkward. In real situations I might end up sending 5 sepoy when you sent the trickle.

Well in India mirror you want to go greedy. Another option is to send 600c to either spam units or age, but it's situational.
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Re: Discussion: Cherokee native upgrade

Post by supahons »

rouga build copyright © :lol: - make a guide to claim the new territory, this is an overlooked topic
if you study the civs + maps you will definitely find new viable native strategies in supremacy ;)

i think https://eso-community.net/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=905 is the only guide so far (only an overview, Jun 2015)
other discussions: (Jun 2017)
https://eso-community.net/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=11398&hilit=native
https://eso-community.net/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=11847&p=249671&hilit=native#p249671

the rest 2016-x is certainly outdated

*@Gendarme i've made an error in reasoning, you only need max. 14 native BO / map, then you play it or you don't.
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Re: Discussion: Cherokee native upgrade

Post by bwinner »

How good are the cheerokee nativs once you have the TP ? Because if they are as good as skirm you can just make them in the begining and save a military building with some civ.
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Re: Discussion: Cherokee native upgrade

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

bwinner1 wrote:How good are the cheerokee nativs once you have the TP ? Because if they are as good as skirm you can just make them in the begining and save a military building with some civ.

I think they're like skirms, but you don't want skirms when you semi ff or play India.
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Re: Discussion: Cherokee native upgrade

Post by deleted_user0 »

theyre bad skirms, but actually theyre more like better xbows with guns. they have only 16 range. theyre one of the better nats though, i think. but 60w/60f is still quite expensive.

cherokee seminole rush was quite scary on nilla, but thats because they could beat cav start lol XD u got more + no negative multiplier
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Re: Discussion: Cherokee native upgrade

Post by bwinner »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
bwinner1 wrote:How good are the cheerokee nativs once you have the TP ? Because if they are as good as skirm you can just make them in the begining and save a military building with some civ.

I think they're like skirms, but you don't want skirms when you semi ff or play India.

With india probably not (unless maybe if you up karni ?), but for semi why not ? You sometimes face heavy infantery so you could make 5 with ger or fr right ? Brit could also use them to defend vs musk. Anyway just the fact that you have the TP may be enough to discourage the heavy inf option for the opponent and that's always a good think to reduce the other guys option I guess.
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