discussion of wall macro

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Bavaria Gichtenlord
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Re: tabben vs. kynesie

Post by Gichtenlord »

Why do you even need a script/makro for deleting pillars? It's just ctrl + a => delete while selecting a pillar.
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Re: tabben vs. kynesie

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Post by Lukas_L99 »

Just fucking play without mods, scripts, whatever. Play the game how it is lol...
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Re: tabben vs. kynesie

Post by gibson »

You can bind select all and delete to the same key so it literally saves 1 click per line of wall you make as compared to what you can do just in the hot key settings. It’s not game changing in anyway. It certainly shouldn’t be allowed in tournaments, but I’m tired of everyone acting like it’s some huge deal. But “muuuhhhhh apm kynesie makes so many walls it’s such a big deal reeeeeeeee”. No it’s not. If he made 200 lines of wall that’s 200 clicks saved which is irrelevant over a 30 minute game.
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Re: tabben vs. kynesie

Post by Kaiserklein »

Well obviously it doesn't auto win the game, it's just a small advantage. I agree that tabben could have played differently and do better or even maybe win the game (it was still kind of close after all) regardless of this macro. Forfeiting like that was not justified imo, and I'm glad tabben is ready to change his mind.

However, it is still an unfair advantage, and it's even probably forbidden according to that rule. Though we need to wait for an admin to confirm that, since the rules aren't 100% explicit.

I think finishing the series without wall macro sounds fair.
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Re: tabben vs. kynesie

Post by Garja »

gibson wrote:You can bind select all and delete to the same key so it literally saves 1 click per line of wall you make as compared to what you can do just in the hot key settings. It’s not game changing in anyway. It certainly shouldn’t be allowed in tournaments, but I’m tired of everyone acting like it’s some huge deal. But “muuuhhhhh apm kynesie makes so many walls it’s such a big deal reeeeeeeee”. No it’s not. If he made 200 lines of wall that’s 200 clicks saved which is irrelevant over a 30 minute game.

Select all and delete on the same key :hmm: doesnt sound very smart.
On a serious note it is big deal. Walling is actually time consuming if done without the macro key or script. Even just clicking on the pillar and not on the long segment it takes a fraction of second each time to double check you did it right. While you're doing all of this you're missing other stuff. The macro key is just more convenient otherwise wouldn't be used.
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Re: tabben vs. kynesie

Post by gibson »

It doesnt matter if its smart, what matters is, like I said, it saves one click per line of wall you make vs what can be done in the hotkey menu. Obviously its more convenient and obviously it shouldnt be allowed in tournaments, but it saves just what you said it does, a fraction of a second, which is barely relevant.
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Re: tabben vs. kynesie

Post by Garja »

My point is exactly that a fraction of second each time is relevant. Plus you avoid misclicks which is another big deal. Especially if you are shrining with 2 monks you really don't want to focus on walling to begin with. So every second saved in the process is big deal.
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Re: tabben vs. kynesie

Post by Kaiserklein »

Btw even if you have both delete and select all on the same key (which means that every time you need to delete only 1 unit you will have to click on the icon btw...), you still need to click on the wall pillar + hit the key + confirm with "ok", which is 3 actions. Without that weird hotkey thing it's 4 action. With the macro though, it's only one action, and you don't actually even need to have your screen focused on the wall or to bother aiming to select the wall pillar so it's definitely way easier and faster.
But yeah not exactly game winning either... Just an advantage.
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Re: tabben vs. kynesie

Post by fightinfrenchman »

I was dunking on tabben earlier but I do think anything outside the game and the patch should not be allowed (that includes building rotate mod unless that is baked into the patch)
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Re: tabben vs. kynesie

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Post by lordraphael »

gibson i usually think that depsite being not a top player your assesment on balance is fairly accurate but here youre just wrong, maybe becuase you infact dont play the game on a higher level. Builidng walls effortless is certainly a big deal and helps kynseise far bigger than you could imagine. Building walls pillarless in a way kynesie usually does is acutally quite time intensive and the wall macro helps it in an abusrd way. Maybe if you just build one wall its not that big of a deal but kynesie is abusing walls to an extent where its almost borderline broken all by itself and adding a wall macro certainly makes it evenr more so.
Youre right, for a korean sc 2 pro walling might very well be close to the same as it would be to kynesie with his wall macro.
But kynesie is far from that level even more so than most other top players so it is a big deal and talking it down is more a reflection of the limited amount of insight into the mechanics of aoe at a top level than it is an actual reflection of the game,
breeze wrote: they cant even guess how much f***ing piece of stupid retarded they look they are trying to give lesson to people who are over pr35 and know the best mu. im pretty sure that we need a page that only pr30+ post and then we could have a nice discussins.
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Re: tabben vs. kynesie

Post by gibson »

Nice the classic "you arent pr 40 so youre wrong" argument. I feel like im beating a dead horse. Show me a spot in a game that he's played where the fraction of a second that he saves actually matters(hint, it probably happens like once every 100 games if not more). The point is that if aoe was a competitive game like sc2 it would be a huge deal, but no body plays anywhere near clean enough for the half a second he saves per line of wall to actually matter. The "mechanics of aoe at a top level" arent any different than the mechanics of the aoe that I play, besides the fact I,intentionally, dont micro units. I've beaten 75% of top players with those mechanics, and would have beaten you last time I played you but for the fact that I closed my eyes during what ended up being the last fight, so its not so unreasonable to assume that if I actually tryharded the game for a bit I could reach the elusive "pr 35+" where I wouldnt just be able to be automatically dismissed without any argument like youre doing. So if you can provide some actually reasoning besides "youre bad so youre wrong" please do so.

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Re: tabben vs. kynesie

Post by gibson »

The point is does the wall macro make a difference? Yes. Was it the 1st or 2nd or 3rd or 4th or 5th or 6th or 7th or 8th or 9th reason why tabben lost? No.
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Re: tabben vs. kynesie

Post by deleted_user0 »

fightinfrenchman wrote:I was dunking on tabben earlier but I do think anything outside the game and the patch should not be allowed (that includes building rotate mod unless that is baked into the patch)


wall macro clearly should be forbidden. but tabben didnt lose because of it. he just completely didnt adjust to the person he's playing. or the civ in fact. while its 100% clear from the start what kynesie is going to do as he does it with literally every civ he plays on a water map...

i'm not gonna rip on him, because its a fucking joke kynesie is still allowed to play in tournaments, but whatever. in the end hes better than tabben so i dont mind if he advances here too much. just gotta wait for next series to be unplayable in lag and what not. :roll:
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Re: tabben vs. kynesie

Post by fightinfrenchman »

Ye that's not why he won but I still think it's a problem the admins must look at
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Re: tabben vs. kynesie

Post by deleted_user0 »

ah yea, i just read tabbens point. I agree, if kynesie used it in this series, and it's not allowed in the rules, then imo kynesie should be banned. it's just simple. especially if he used it in previous games as well. play by the rules or don't play. period.

at least a 0-0 restart should be seriously considered here. let's see if admins will finally make a decision rofl. or just wait and put burden on the players to decide, like every fucing time before with this guy XD
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Re: tabben vs. kynesie

Post by gibson »

umeu wrote:
fightinfrenchman wrote:I was dunking on tabben earlier but I do think anything outside the game and the patch should not be allowed (that includes building rotate mod unless that is baked into the patch)


wall macro clearly should be forbidden. but tabben didnt lose because of it. he just completely didnt adjust to the person he's playing. or the civ in fact. while its 100% clear from the start what kynesie is going to do as he does it with literally every civ he plays on a water map...

i'm not gonna rip on him, because its a fucking joke kynesie is still allowed to play in tournaments, but whatever. in the end hes better than tabben so i dont mind if he advances here too much. just gotta wait for next series to be unplayable in lag and what not. :roll:
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Re: tabben vs. kynesie

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Post by lordraphael »

gibson wrote:Nice the classic "you arent pr 40 so youre wrong" argument. I feel like im beating a dead horse. Show me a spot in a game that he's played where the fraction of a second that he saves actually matters(hint, it probably happens like once every 100 games if not more). The point is that if aoe was a competitive game like sc2 it would be a huge deal, but no body plays anywhere near clean enough for the half a second he saves per line of wall to actually matter. The "mechanics of aoe at a top level" arent any different than the mechanics of the aoe that I play, besides the fact I,intentionally, dont micro units. I've beaten 75% of top players with those mechanics, and would have beaten you last time I played you but for the fact that I closed my eyes during what ended up being the last fight, so its not so unreasonable to assume that if I actually tryharded the game for a bit I could reach the elusive "pr 35+" where I wouldnt just be able to be automatically dismissed without any argument like youre doing. So if you can provide some actually reasoning besides "youre bad so youre wrong" please do so.

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nad here comes the classic gibson argument " i could be a top player if i only tried. Just as much as me or other top players are bathing in the "im a top player" attidude you are bathing in the " i could if i only tried" attidude which makes you not a single bit better than anyone of us and is as irrelevant as you claim my argument to be. And for the reccord me playing china is probably the biggest troll of all, so you coming close to beating me there would be literally as telling as you coming close to beating me in a game where i would go for a black watch brit ff or other troll strats.
breeze wrote: they cant even guess how much f***ing piece of stupid retarded they look they are trying to give lesson to people who are over pr35 and know the best mu. im pretty sure that we need a page that only pr30+ post and then we could have a nice discussins.
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Re: tabben vs. kynesie

Post by deleted_user0 »

gibson wrote:
umeu wrote:
fightinfrenchman wrote:I was dunking on tabben earlier but I do think anything outside the game and the patch should not be allowed (that includes building rotate mod unless that is baked into the patch)


wall macro clearly should be forbidden. but tabben didnt lose because of it. he just completely didnt adjust to the person he's playing. or the civ in fact. while its 100% clear from the start what kynesie is going to do as he does it with literally every civ he plays on a water map...

i'm not gonna rip on him, because its a fucking joke kynesie is still allowed to play in tournaments, but whatever. in the end hes better than tabben so i dont mind if he advances here too much. just gotta wait for next series to be unplayable in lag and what not. :roll:
coin flip to see who wins the series!


well thats what happens when admins dont do their job
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Re: tabben vs. kynesie

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Re: tabben vs. kynesie

Post by fightinfrenchman »

If it didn't make a difference, he wouldn't use it
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Re: tabben vs. kynesie

Post by deleted_user0 »

if you delete 1 thing, it won't ask, but if you delete more than 1, it asks you are you sure.

admins should make a clear ruling on the use of this macro, once and for all. it's pretty bs it's not been cleared up before but whatever.
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Re: tabben vs. kynesie

Post by EAGLEMUT »

umeu wrote:ah yea, i just read tabbens point. I agree, if kynesie used it in this series, and it's not allowed in the rules, then imo kynesie should be banned. it's just simple. especially if he used it in previous games as well. play by the rules or don't play. period.

I don't think that's fair. Considering just about everyone knows about this macro, it has been used in numerous tournament games before and there was never an official statement against its usage (afaik), it would feel quite random to DQ a player for it now.
umeu wrote:admins should make a clear ruling on the use of this macro, once and for all. it's pretty bs it's not been cleared up before but whatever.

Well, I can say it will be cleared up once the next version of EP releases, if you know what I mean.
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Re: tabben vs. kynesie

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Post by Gichtenlord »

So... Rules are very strict towards rotator mod, but when it comes to another modification it is suddenly unfair for the poor users of the mods.
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Re: tabben vs. kynesie

Post by EAGLEMUT »

Rotator rule is clear. This hotkey has been in use for years without any indication that it's disallowed.
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Re: tabben vs. kynesie

Post by princeofkabul »

Glad to hear tabben will continue his series. I didn't really save my words to you or miggo last night because I was very hyped for the series, for that I apologize.
For wall mod, I've heard it's automatic program deleting pillar foundations or something so you don't need to click them. Also I've heard it's just a macro setup for choose all and delete chosen objects.
I don't know which is the truth, but if it's the choose all and delete objects I literally have used it for some years myself. Binding choose all in one macro of my gaming mouse and delete in other. With this you can pretty much effortlessly construct pillarless walls if you have good mouse accuracy. I don't know if kynesie has the same setup for it as I, but if he has it and is just so fast deleting the pillars ( without automatic delete script) I don't see a reason why he can't do it. Utilizing gaming mouse advantages should not be forbidden.
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