MU of the month: India versus Japan

[j_t_kirk]

Back to the great AOE3 strategies. We saw in the past some nice MU of the week already. Now, here we start to continue with it!
The meta change, the player skill level change, and the patch change. Let's find out what they could do. Some high-level 1v1 players from our lovely community want to show up in a BO5.

Every at least once per month a thread will be opened where you can discuss a certain MU on a certain map. Hopefully, the discussion will be in depth and top players will share their insight.


What is the current meta?
What strategy fits best for each map?

VS
STREAM

The map pool:
Kamtchatka - - - BajaCalifornia - - - Cascade Range - - - Hudson Bay - - - Klondike




You can find a list of ESOC maps here: maps.php

Welcome! Credit for this idea goes to @kami_ryu as well as @musketeer925 , @BrookG ,@lemmings121 & @Diarouga building upon it. They are the masterminds behind this pretty nice idea!
Here you can vote for the next MU:https://goo.gl/forms/uupoU4ZlRoXA9fm13
All played MU's you can find here: https://eso-community.net/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=13821

EDIT: the rule about civ switch was temporarily removed for it being complicating
If both players have won at least once, they are allowed to switch their civs without changing the agreed MU. If they can't agree they have to end up in a blind pick to the caster or need to stick with their chosen civ.

[QueenOfdestiny]

Good thread!

[GiBthedurrty]

glhf

[WickedCossack]

Have not played this MU on EP yet with the sepoy change so would be very interested to know what other players have come up with from the India side.

On RE as India nothing beats the eco 12 sepoy slow push imo and playing it nice and slow but controlling until you suffocate the Japan with no overcommitments.

It's also the only MU I've found a semi-legitamate use for flail elephants (though wouldn't use it in a tournament match) but it's not a complete troll either. It's also the only India build I have where I ship 600w before trickle. Karni age, tower mid up in transition, make 4 flails, split 2 each with explorer and seige shrines (don't rush base) ship 600w first add rax and market and play from there. Use explorers to stop ashis/nagis sneaking up on the 2 flail groups.

[deleted_user]

I think it's close mu depending on which age they fight coz both civs have good advantages.

India is clearly better in age2 and probably 3 but when it comes to late age3 or age4 ( maybe even age 2 ) fight it turns to japan favourable because japan units are slightly better with additional upgrades while india units have limited. sepoys are good and effective unit and gurkha is k. but problem is japanese units are getting better late game.. still india can make a good play with 2 great cannon and 9 urumi shipments so it's defenitely depend on player skill I think. because the mu is just one of the most fair mu in aoe3 it's fairness level is kinda like france vs german

[Darwin_]

In general, I have won this matchup as Japan by either club rushing a agra push and cheesing out map control for a quick win, or walling and trying to push the game as long as possible and abuse how poorly India can counter yumi.

On Cascade, Hudson, and Klondike, I would greatly prefer the club rush option, if India does actually sepoy rush, but would much rather wall up on Kamchatka and Baja due to how those maps are much more broken up and make shrine sieging much harder.

Whatever the map, I would never go for Kami, even if you are trying to push the game later, as India is going to have good map presence, and their relative low food use makes shrines comparatively less valuable because their hunt blocking ability hurts them less. On Baja, Cascade, and Hudson, I would without a doubt go 3 boats, while on Klondike and Baja I would go 2 vills, maybe even 300w on Klondike. India will generally play quite slow, even though they are usually the aggressor, because they think Japan will play slow as well. However, if you do a non-kami build you can push the tempo more in your favour, while not really sacrificing too much as late game Japan, at least in my opinion, shits on India regardless of how you start because of Yumi, flaming arrows, and Nagi.

Yumi, wall, 3 hands on D is honestly a very legitimate strategy in this matchup, as India doesn't strike that quickly, unless they do 10/10 (this matchup is one of the few where India 10/10 is viable IMO), meaning that you have decent time to get up walls and can get out yumi early enough to deal with sepoy, though you will most likely have to do some TC fire and villager fighting for the first few seconds if they are very aggressive. Even though India's late colonial is one of the best in the game, Japan's deals with India's quite well. I would very much argue that Yumi/nagi/ashi is a far superior composition than even Ghurka/sepoy/zamb/sowar, and Yumi attack, Ashi attack, and daimyo are insane upgrades.

[greatscythe11]

Since Japan has a very infantry heavy(2/3rd or more?) composition, anti-infantry elements such as artillery or lancers on paper have a pretty good chance against them. And since India doesn't really have an ant-infantry artillery, how about mixing some Jat lancers ? Sure, they cost a card, but India generally has early map control and many maps feature 3 or more tps that can be taken. Arguments for the investment can be-a) 160 damage with Dravidian martial arts which also helps sepoys-honored yumi takes 1 hit, honored ashi takes 2 , b) 40% range resist(Japanese army has one of the highest ranged dps I think) and 7 speed, c) can be trained in age 3 and d) stable may not be needed. Also, often, fight vs Japan happens in tight corridors where I think cav numbers matter less. Off course, it will still need support like anticav and siege but I haven't seen enough use of the Jat Lancer as an infantry killer.

[spadel]

CM is a very important card in this matchup for Japan, because Sepoys get 2 shotted. The best way for India to win is to play the long age 2 game. In age 3 Yumi/Ashi should win, unless you run into Urumis.

[deleted_user0]

in ep sepoy get 1 shotted without CM now anyway. so it's useless to send that card since you usually can't afford the CM units anyway. Even if you can, they're not that great vs sepoy in any case

[spadel]

no idea about EP, but in RE not having the option to send cm is just losing against 12 Sepoy rush. I dont‘t like to send it either, but it‘s necessary in some situations.

[greatscythe11]

Well, if extra mm are not needed, a castle can be a cheaper alternative to cm. With a bit of luck 2 tc shots and one(2 otherwise)castle shot are enough to kill a sepoy. It has 3000 hp so not very easy to kill also.

[Gendarme]

Well, if extra mm are not needed, a castle can be a cheaper alternative to cm. With a bit of luck 2 tc shots and one(2 otherwise)castle shot are enough to kill a sepoy. It has 3000 hp so not very easy to kill also.

You shouldn't fake being AFK, cancel the lobby when your opponent still doesn't leave, and then pest him so he can't join, only because you lose against them despite you resigning before two minutes whenever you get bad hunts on that shit map of yours.

The real mystery, however, is that you somehow are a Captain despite only knowing how to right-click with your boxed army with a reaction time worse than that of a drunkard.

[rsy]

Well, if extra mm are not needed, a castle can be a cheaper alternative to cm. With a bit of luck 2 tc shots and one(2 otherwise)castle shot are enough to kill a sepoy. It has 3000 hp so not very easy to kill also.

You shouldn't fake being AFK, cancel the lobby when your opponent still doesn't leave, and then pest him so he can't join, only because you lose against them despite you resigning before two minutes whenever you get bad hunts on that shit map of yours.

The real mystery, however, is that you somehow are a Captain despite only knowing how to right-click with your boxed army with a reaction time worse than that of a drunkard.

Damn Gendarme u mad or what? If he wants to be a piroshiki he can be a piroshiki it's a free world.

I hate how bad India does vs Japan in late age 3 and in age 4. Urumi usually end up getting one shot over and over without even touching the Japan army and same with mahouts. If you ceasefire he goes behind walls. So basically need to kill Japan in age 2 with a well timed push or early age 3 with a siege eles push.

As Japan, just stick behind walls with like 10 15 yumis. If India doesn't push early and just sieges tps with sepoy, grt! Just get to age 3 anyway and get three tcs among other things

[Gendarme]

it's a free world.

Oh, how I wish this was true.

[Hazza54321]

gendarme just got annihalated by greatscythe

[Gendarme]

You confused the names. I understand it's easily done as they both begin with the same letter.

[[Armag] diarouga]

It's a veru close MU.
I've changed my mind very often about this one.
On the one hand it seems that India can just sepoy rush, get an advantage and snow ball with a better economy in middle game, but on the other, if the jap player manages to hold, he'll have a better eco and yumis do the job.

I think that walls are key in this MU, because holding convincingly without walls is almost impossible.
I probably won't find the time to play this month, but count on me for the next MU!

[Kaiserklein]

Nice idea, that's gonna be cool to watch and discuss. There's just one thing I don't understand:

If both players have won at least once, they are allowed to switch their civs without changing the agreed MU. If they can't agree they have to end up in a blind pick to the caster or need to stick with their chosen civ.

Do players just play some random match ups?

VS

Or do they play only the MU of the month in the series?

[thomasgreen6]

Well, if extra mm are not needed, a castle can be a cheaper alternative to cm. With a bit of luck 2 tc shots and one(2 otherwise)castle shot are enough to kill a sepoy. It has 3000 hp so not very easy to kill also.

You shouldn't fake being AFK, cancel the lobby when your opponent still doesn't leave, and then pest him so he can't join, only because you lose against them despite you resigning before two minutes whenever you get bad hunts on that shit map of yours.

The real mystery, however, is that you somehow are a Captain despite only knowing how to right-click with your boxed army with a reaction time worse than that of a drunkard.

Don't listen to the haters baby. He's just mad that his bot build lost to GreatscytheOP. That said, it would be nice if you'd unblock me too. Piroshiki still beats me every time... @greatscythe11

[deleted_user0]

Nice idea, that's gonna be cool to watch and discuss. There's just one thing I don't understand:

If both players have won at least once, they are allowed to switch their civs without changing the agreed MU. If they can't agree they have to end up in a blind pick to the caster or need to stick with their chosen civ.

Do players just play some random match ups?

VS

Or do they play only the MU of the month in the series?

They play the mu of the month but can switch civs in the mu.

So u vs me. U jap. Me india.

G1. U win. So we have to do it again.
G2. U win. So we cant change until i win.
G3. I win. Now i can play jap and u can do india.
G4. I win with japan.
G5. I win ofc!

[Kaiserklein]

Yeah, but the "blind pick" made me think you can pick more than just jap or india

[deleted_user0]

yea i agree, blind pick comment was a bit weird there lol.

[spadel]

I might have the time to play some games on sunday, if anybody wants to play India I would be up for some games with this MU

@[Armag] diarouga @deleted_user @Kaiserklein

[deleted_user0]

you should tag @Hazza54321 @deleted_user2 @Aykin Haraka @tabben @amiggo1999 they're the new top (india) playerzzz

[QueenOfdestiny]

you should tag @Hazza54321 @deleted_user2 @Aykin Haraka @tabben @amiggo1999 they're the new top (india) playerzzz

[spoiler=]Maybe 2 of them play and it gets streamed soon [/spoiler]