MU of the month: India versus Japan

[Garja]

I think that's relevant to understand why walls are op in aoe3. HPs become secondary.

[edeholland]

They are also more expensive in AoE2, take longer to build and cost a more valuable resource.

[Kaiserklein]

Also they are available in age 2 right? In age 1 you have only shitty walls. And they can be upgraded in age 3 from an expensive building

[edeholland]

Right. How many comparisons do we want to make before it's meaningless? I think a good way to nerf walls are with building time & cost. We can nerf the hp from 7500, but I personally think it would be fun if siege units still have a role, which are less useful when walls have low hp. Also I rather face 1 wall with 7500 hp than an enemy who makes 2 walls with 4500 hp. Nerfing build time & cost make sure that walls are still useful, nobody spams 10 layers of them but they are also not quickly spammable (quickly spamming walls doesn't make any sense anyway, if you think about it).

[Garja]

Ye it makes sense.

[HUMMAN]

bear in mind in aoe2 buildings are less breakable, in aoe3 sieging stuff is easier. Even in colonial you can siege buildings with heavy infantry. And walling like a kynesie is a playstyle i did not saw anyone who success at his level in walling(maybe his program is the secret )

[Garja]

more like none likes to play like that to even start practicing it

[[Armag] diarouga]

They are also more expensive in AoE2, take longer to build and cost a more valuable resource.

They're unkillable in aoe2. Tbh I'd much rather have AOE2 walls to turtle lol^^.

[Kaiserklein]

Imo it's just not fun that some civs (mostly japs) can just sit in base forever just because they outscale hard and get 7500 hp walls. Bastion is expensive for sure, but when you think about it it's just worth like 10-15 units. So jap's opponent has a small window of a couple minutes to push unupgraded walls with this military advantage, which is not easy because flaming arrows have a lot of range and they dps while your units are sieging down several layers of walls. You'd need culvs to kill them since they outrange falcs, but if you invest the res and time for a foundry and culv(s), it just makes it easy for japan to get bastion. So I'm not sure how most civs are supposed to push in this. Only india has an obvious window to push with the 2 elephants shipment because you get them in 40s, they have a lot of siege, and they beat flaming arrows.

You could try to just boom yourself while denying shrines, but even if you get more eco (which is not granted for all civs), you're simply going to die to age 4 jap units and it won't matter much.

Of course I was talking about civs that need to age here. Civs like aztec, otto or russia can pressure in colonial so it's easier, although CM and/or walls can still be hard to deal with.


Ports can also do that, but because they don't have flaming arrows and because they need hunts, it's not as easy.

[Gendarme]

Ryan vs Kosmane on Kamchatka, anyone? #FranceMasterrace

[HUMMAN]

Turtle playstyle in civs are few (jap and port dunno which civ also) so i think it would not be hard to balance if turtling op which is probably not.(Actually didnt erik won all land turtle games against kynesie)For example can buff trade monopoly such that punishes base sitting. Or slower upgrade in bastion etc.

[Ashvin]

I have beaten Jap around my level as india on RE many times

[[Armag] diarouga]

I have beaten Jap around my level as india on RE many times

Well, going for a sepoy rush is much easier than turtling, that's why at lower level India is probably better than Jap. At top level however, turtling becomes much stronger.

[deleted_user0]

Turtle playstyle in civs are few (jap and port dunno which civ also) so i think it would not be hard to balance if turtling op which is probably not.(Actually didnt erik won all land turtle games against kynesie)For example can buff trade monopoly such that punishes base sitting. Or slower upgrade in bastion etc.

diarouga couldve probably done trade monopoly yeah, if he secured the water for monitors. so instead of breaking the base, he couldve gone TM and sit back with mahout sepoy and his siege eles to snipe morutaru. need to drop some wall layers as well in front of the 2 middle tps.

[MCJim]

https://youtu.be/Yoo9H_iO8Ik