Question: What civilization has the best cavalry: The Indians, or the Sioux?

[DracoWolfgand]

The main unit that the Indians are known for, and arguably their "ace", is the Mahout Lancer. Boasting one of the highest hitpoint amounts of any cavalry unit( In fact, I think it is-The-Meatiest non-mercenary cavalry unit, but I may be forgetting another ), a high Attack stat with the ability to do area damage, and surprisingly decent speed( Admittedly slower then conventional heavy cavalry, but not by as wide of a margin as one might think ), the Mahout Lancer would be arguably the ultimate cavalry unit, werent for its two weaknesses. First: it has a attack penalty against heavy infantry. On pratice, all it does is counterbalance its general attack bonus against all infantry units, and with its high attack and area damage, it can still destroy platoons of heavy infantry, especially for civilizations whose heavy infantry isnt very good to begin with. Still, it-Does-Makes it less effective against these units then other lancer cavalry, especially considering... Weakness #2: It is very expensive and very heavy on your population. They should usually be only used in small squads, at most 5-10, as to leave space to crucial support units such as the Gurkhas.

As for the rest of the Indian cavalry, we have: The Sowar( One of the fastest cavalry units in the game... Not actually all that strong, though. But decent for the purposes of Colonial Age raiding ), the Zamburak( One of the rare ranged cavalry units that can be trained straigh from the Colonial Age, what by itself already gives the Indian cavalry a point in the annoyance and Colonial Age raiding departament. It is very frail, but fast and occupies only a single population slot. In terms of population-effectiveness, it is arguably one of the best ranged cavalry units on the game, at least where it comes to countering heavy cavalry ), the Flail Elephant( A specialized building destroyer trainable at the Colonial Age. Basically a faster Ram, neat, but you are likely to forget about it once you begin training the more versatile and powetfull Mahout Lancer ), the Howdah( This one is not as powerfull as it looks, as the Zamburak actually beats it in terms of population efficiency against cavalry and general raiding potential. It has some advantages though: The biggest one being that, thanks to its huge health pool, although it is still capaeble of using hit and run tactics, it doesnt really-Need-To like other ranged cavalry usually does ), and the Siege Elephant( Take the Horse Artillery, give it-Much-More hit points, and you get this. If we are to compare it to the Howdah, obviously it is much better at destroiyng buildings, but much weaker against actual cavalry. It should be seen as a specialized building destroyer though, like standart artillery, it can still be used against infantry if properly protected, or if you pull it away whenever enemy infantry begins getting too close ). Normally, I dont count mercenary units, but I would like to open one exception, as there is a mercenary unit that can be trained exclusevly by the Indians: The Jat Lancer, another "Lancer" type of unit, this one more frail then the Mahout Lancer... But faster, occupiyng less population, with a better anti-infantry bonus and no penalty against Heavy Infantry. It is arguably comparable to the Dog Soldier, one of the two "stars" of the Sioux army: Actually, against infantry, I would go as far as to say the Jat Lancer is-Better. ... Dont forget, though, that the Jat Lancer is only avaliable through the "Atonement" card, on the Industrial Age, and like all mercenaries, it is really expensive.

As for the Sioux: Their army is mostly cavalry, but those which are arguably its two best units are the Dog Soldier, and the Rifle Rider. The Dog Soldier is a "lancer" type cavalry, much like the Spanish Lancer, except that... Well, to be frank, it is just all-around better. Faster, stronger, actually able to take on other meele cavalry through its sheer power, capable of getting a even better anti-infantry multiplier through cards... It is just really strong and versatile. Its only real weakness is that, because of the unusual way it is trained( Only trainable through villagers dancing at the Fire Pit ), it would take a long time to get any significant amount of then out. That makes it comparable, in some ways, to the Mahout Lancer or Jat Lancer as a powerfull and versatile, but hard to mass, cavalry unit.

The Rifle Rider on another hand is a weird yet incredibly powerfull light cavalry unit. As if being fast and having a high attack was not enough, it also has, on top of its attack bonus against heavy cavalry, also a attack bonus against heavy infantry, letting it butcher units such as Musketeers and other heavy infantry units that otherwise could take it on through a ranged attack of their own. It has, however, one weird weakness: It is technically classified as both heavy cavalry and light cavalry, meaning it takes bonus damage both from light infantry AND other light cavalry units. Since light cavalry is also the main counter to the Dog Soldier, this would make a hypotethical Dog Soldier/Rifle Rider army, although tempting, very vulnerable to light cavalry. Other units they have include: The Axe Rider( Because of how hard it is to mass Dog Soldiers, they are likely to be the main heavy cavalry one will be using. They are essentially the Sioux version of the Uhlan, a fast, heavy-hitting, but somewhat frail cavalry unit ), the Bow Rider( Another light cavalry unit that is avaliable right from the Colonial Age. It is not as powerfull as the Rifle Rider, but it is less vulnerable to other light cavalry too, as well as a amazing annoyer and harasser ), and the Tashunke Prowler( A cavalry unit with only average stats, but the property that it becomes more powerfull when there are more of it around. It also has a build limit of 12, though, but it is still excellent for skirmishers and quick raids ).

So, on the overral... Hmmmm... I feel TEMPTED to say the Indians have overral better cavalry, but it might be bias of mine speaking here, as they admittedly are my favourite civilization. The Mahout Lancer is just a bit too good, and although the Sioux have several stars of their own, their cavalry does have some major weaknesses. For a example: As a whole, their army composition is very vulnerable to light cavalry, and they are more built for raiding and hit-and run tactics rather then just wrecking through your opponent settlement like the Indians can do with their Elephants.

[querty]

Hmm I would say that Indians have the worst meelee cav in the game

Sowars just cannot tank which is one of the most important features of cav. Mahout are too easy to focus...

[DracoWolfgand]

Sowars arent-Suppose-To tank. They are more like raiders, hit-and-run guys. The Mahouts are the ones who do the tanking.

I would say that any "ease to focus" on the Mahouts is more then made up for by their massive HP and ranged resistance. Also, if you are focusing fire on the Mahouts, this means you are-Not-Focusing your fire on units like Gurkas, doesnt it :p?

[[Armag] diarouga]

Yea, the indian cavalry might be the worst in the game haha. Sowars are trash because you lose them all before they reach hand combat and mahouts are slow and too big.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Sowars arent-Suppose-To tank. They are more like raiders, hit-and-run guys. The Mahouts are the ones who do the tanking.

I would say that any "ease to focus" on the Mahouts is more then made up for by their massive HP and ranged resistance. Also, if you are focusing fire on the Mahouts, this means you are-Not-Focusing your fire on units like Gurkas, doesnt it :p?

Sowars are bad at raiding in fact. And Mahouts die too fast for their cost.

[DracoWolfgand]

I will admit that I would much prefer to have just the standart Hussars over Sowars... But... I honestly still dont get what you are talking about with the Mahouts. These things are tanks. The only thing that truly counters then is light cavalry, and true, they struggle against it a LOT... But then you bring in the Gurkhas, which can usually kill light cavalry as fast if not faster then it can kill the Mahouts.

[dansil92]

Sowars are such trash units, thats why india's ai is so bad- sowars are always the favoured unit. Mahouts die to musketeer fire so easily with the laziest micro and Generally musketeer artillery composition is hard for india to deal with. Honestly india is more scary when they go mainly infantry (sepoy urumi and a few ghurka) and a few seige elephants(the one exceptional cav unit they have). A mahout or two is great for snaring but SO EXPENSIVE and they have awful pathfinding. Jat lancers are good though, but impractical in most games.

I would say aztec has the best cav in the game tbh

[duckzilla]

I support the view of Indian cavalry being the worst cav in the game. The Mahout may have a lot of HP and even a decent attack, but you can never spam them as you could e.g. Cuirs or even Uhlans. They cost a shit load of ressources (400f 250w) and take a whopping 7 pop space (6 with card) which makes them more than twice as expensive as a french Cuir [using cheaper elephant card is considered as equivalent to the french card here]. Unfortunately, their stats (900hp, 28dmg vs. 500hp, 30dmg) do not make up for it.

The attack bonus against skirm type infantry is nice, but their general dmg output is so low that they fail to beat any other unit in the game consistently. This is not the case for Cuirs, which is why they are considered overpowered.

Further points why Mahout are bad units:

• Their path finding is even worse than that of standard cavalry, increasing a problem which melee cav has in general.
• Their attack animation against buildings is crap. You basically cannot get through walls with Mahouts, while this is quite easy for Cuirs.
• If you want to have a mixed army (e.g. Gurkhas + Mahout + Siege Elephants), you cannot have more than like 6-8 Mahout, which then are easily sniped.
• While the Mansabdar units for Gurkha/Sepoy can be quite useful, the Mahout equivalent is just crap since it costs a whopping 14 pop space.

The best Indian unit is, without question and by a wide margin, the Sepoy.

[DracoWolfgand]

I will not deny that Sepoys are pretty great. Gurkhas have the potential to be really good, too, but they require something meaty supporting then. Like the Mahouts...

Talking about Mansadbar, I always had split feeling on then in general. Let us face it, if you are going to make Mansadbar Mahouts, you are making-One-Mansadbar Mahout, because any more then that would ne just impratical. And even this one I would be unsure of, as there is always the possibility of it diyng before its boost gets the chance to count. I would say that, if I am GOING to make Mansadbar units, my favourite unit to make these for is the Gurkha, as you can spread out the Mansadbar Gurkhas so they can do what Mansadbar units are suppose to do best( Boosting their attack ), making these already solid hitters become pretty much offensive hammers. But even then, I always wonder whether these resources could be best employed somewhere else...

Also, when talking about the attack of the Mahouts, one should really, REALLY not forget the fact they attack in a area, what more then makes up for their "low" basic attack. Especially when they are employed in a small cluster.

[duckzilla]

Also, when talking about the attack of the Mahouts, one should really, REALLY not forget the fact they attack in a area, what more then makes up for their "low" basic attack. Especially when they are employed in a small cluster.

That's why I compare it to Cuirs. They also have area attack, which starts out even stronger than the Mahout's (30dmg vs 28dmg).

I can understand that the Mahout is a cool unit per se and gives a lot of flavour. But it is, unfortunately, not a good unit.

[Gendarme]

Yeah their damage output is absolutely worthless against other cavalry.

[DracoWolfgand]

Hmmmm, granted, the Cuirassier is definitively the most cost effective of the two. I guess that, instinctively, I kind of compared the Mahout Lancer to the Hussars. But that might have been a unfair comparisson, as they both actually serve different roles( Although the Hussar can be meaty, it is meant as a raider first, a tank secound. ) Not sure if I would call their damage output "worthless" though.

I wonder, for all of you people that think the Mahout Lancer is underpowered: What if someone were to remove its attack penalty against heavy infantry, thus, making it behave more like a proper "Lancer" cavalry? Would that be a appropriate boost? Not enough? Or-Too-Much?( As it would now effectivelly have almost twice the attack the Cuirassier has against infantry, and we all know how good the Cuirassier is. )

[lemmings121]

weird comparison... indeed india has the worse handcav in the game. not much to compare here.

[spanky4ever]

The main unit that the Indians are known for, and arguably their "ace", is the Mahout Lancer. Boasting one of the highest hitpoint amounts of any cavalry unit( In fact, I think it is-The-Meatiest non-mercenary cavalry unit, but I may be forgetting another ), a high Attack stat with the ability to do area damage, and surprisingly decent speed( Admittedly slower then conventional heavy cavalry, but not by as wide of a margin as one might think ), the Mahout Lancer would be arguably the ultimate cavalry unit, werent for its two weaknesses. First: it has a attack penalty against heavy infantry. On pratice, all it does is counterbalance its general attack bonus against all infantry units, and with its high attack and area damage, it can still destroy platoons of heavy infantry, especially for civilizations whose heavy infantry isnt very good to begin with. Still, it-Does-Makes it less effective against these units then other lancer cavalry, especially considering... Weakness #2: It is very expensive and very heavy on your population. They should usually be only used in small squads, at most 5-10, as to leave space to crucial support units such as the Gurkhas.

As for the rest of the Indian cavalry, we have: The Sowar( One of the fastest cavalry units in the game... Not actually all that strong, though. But decent for the purposes of Colonial Age raiding ), the Zamburak( One of the rare ranged cavalry units that can be trained straigh from the Colonial Age, what by itself already gives the Indian cavalry a point in the annoyance and Colonial Age raiding departament. It is very frail, but fast and occupies only a single population slot. In terms of population-effectiveness, it is arguably one of the best ranged cavalry units on the game, at least where it comes to countering heavy cavalry ), the Flail Elephant( A specialized building destroyer trainable at the Colonial Age. Basically a faster Ram, neat, but you are likely to forget about it once you begin training the more versatile and powetfull Mahout Lancer ), the Howdah( This one is not as powerfull as it looks, as the Zamburak actually beats it in terms of population efficiency against cavalry and general raiding potential. It has some advantages though: The biggest one being that, thanks to its huge health pool, although it is still capaeble of using hit and run tactics, it doesnt really-Need-To like other ranged cavalry usually does ), and the Siege Elephant( Take the Horse Artillery, give it-Much-More hit points, and you get this. If we are to compare it to the Howdah, obviously it is much better at destroiyng buildings, but much weaker against actual cavalry. It should be seen as a specialized building destroyer though, like standart artillery, it can still be used against infantry if properly protected, or if you pull it away whenever enemy infantry begins getting too close ). Normally, I dont count mercenary units, but I would like to open one exception, as there is a mercenary unit that can be trained exclusevly by the Indians: The Jat Lancer, another "Lancer" type of unit, this one more frail then the Mahout Lancer... But faster, occupiyng less population, with a better anti-infantry bonus and no penalty against Heavy Infantry. It is arguably comparable to the Dog Soldier, one of the two "stars" of the Sioux army: Actually, against infantry, I would go as far as to say the Jat Lancer is-Better. ... Dont forget, though, that the Jat Lancer is only avaliable through the "Atonement" card, on the Industrial Age, and like all mercenaries, it is really expensive.

As for the Sioux: Their army is mostly cavalry, but those which are arguably its two best units are the Dog Soldier, and the Rifle Rider. The Dog Soldier is a "lancer" type cavalry, much like the Spanish Lancer, except that... Well, to be frank, it is just all-around better. Faster, stronger, actually able to take on other meele cavalry through its sheer power, capable of getting a even better anti-infantry multiplier through cards... It is just really strong and versatile. Its only real weakness is that, because of the unusual way it is trained( Only trainable through villagers dancing at the Fire Pit ), it would take a long time to get any significant amount of then out. That makes it comparable, in some ways, to the Mahout Lancer or Jat Lancer as a powerfull and versatile, but hard to mass, cavalry unit.

The Rifle Rider on another hand is a weird yet incredibly powerfull light cavalry unit. As if being fast and having a high attack was not enough, it also has, on top of its attack bonus against heavy cavalry, also a attack bonus against heavy infantry, letting it butcher units such as Musketeers and other heavy infantry units that otherwise could take it on through a ranged attack of their own. It has, however, one weird weakness: It is technically classified as both heavy cavalry and light cavalry, meaning it takes bonus damage both from light infantry AND other light cavalry units. Since light cavalry is also the main counter to the Dog Soldier, this would make a hypotethical Dog Soldier/Rifle Rider army, although tempting, very vulnerable to light cavalry. Other units they have include: The Axe Rider( Because of how hard it is to mass Dog Soldiers, they are likely to be the main heavy cavalry one will be using. They are essentially the Sioux version of the Uhlan, a fast, heavy-hitting, but somewhat frail cavalry unit ), the Bow Rider( Another light cavalry unit that is avaliable right from the Colonial Age. It is not as powerfull as the Rifle Rider, but it is less vulnerable to other light cavalry too, as well as a amazing annoyer and harasser ), and the Tashunke Prowler( A cavalry unit with only average stats, but the property that it becomes more powerfull when there are more of it around. It also has a build limit of 12, though, but it is still excellent for skirmishers and quick raids ).

So, on the overral... Hmmmm... I feel TEMPTED to say the Indians have overral better cavalry, but it might be bias of mine speaking here, as they admittedly are my favourite civilization. The Mahout Lancer is just a bit too good, and although the Sioux have several stars of their own, their cavalry does have some major weaknesses. For a example: As a whole, their army composition is very vulnerable to light cavalry, and they are more built for raiding and hit-and run tactics rather than just wrecking through your opponent settlement like the Indians can do with their Elephants.

Nice summery I think the howdahs are really good and counter most Sioux cav. The cost of them though :(
Think you downplay the Bow Riders. You should ask yourself why high ranked players, prefer to go mostly Bow Riders

[spanky4ever]

I would say that French Cav is the best, under some conditions.
On Great planes they can get the upgrades from the native trading posts, that will enhance their cav very much. In addition, French have some upgrades to natives, that no other civs have. The late game gendarme games are hard to beat, with or without the native upgraded though

[Papist]

Mahouts are pretty terrible. For 650 resources, you get a 917 hp unit with 28 hand attack that costs 7 pop slots. Compare this to cuirassiers, the most analagous unit: 2 cuirassiers cost 600 resources, have 1000 hp, 60 hand attack, and 6 pop slots between them. Cuirassiers also cost gold instead of wood.

That should give you an idea of how inefficient mahouts are per cost. There's a reason the only time they appear in competitive games is when someone sends the shipment (which is itself only good for brief power spike). They do get better when you send the cards, but there isn't time or space in a supremacy deck for that. Also, they still cost wood.

[Garja]

Camels and elephants are not as bad as people think but India is definitely not a cav civ.
Sioux is by far the best cav civ. Other civs are close together with Fre/Brits/Ger/Russia standing up a little. Actually Russia, which is often seen more of a mass hence infanry civ, has probably the best cav after Sioux.

[SoldieR]

Mahouts are definitely good to end games instantly when the opponent has a mass of skirm or xbow (in a late, low gold game). So when India is mainly all sepoy, adding 4 mahouts at specific points just ends games.

To the OP: you can only make 1 mansabar of each unit, can't have 2 gurkha mans and spread them out like you mentioned.

[Gendarme]

Costing wood is probably beneficial in the case of India, @Papist. They gather wood rather quickly, and it slows down the depletion of your coin mines.

[Hazza54321]

Why do people ignore that mahouts have a shitty attack animation and terrible pathing

[Challe]

Camels and elephants are not as bad as people think but India is definitely not a cav civ.
Sioux is by far the best cav civ. Other civs are close together with Fre/Brits/Ger/Russia standing up a little. Actually Russia, which is often seen more of a mass hence infanry civ, has probably the best cav after Sioux.

I get flamed when I make cossacks with Russia in teamgame -_-

So underrated

[Gendarme]

@Sargsyan @edeholland

[DracoWolfgand]

French Cuirassiers are awesome, however, I was originally not including then on my analysis beause, truth be told, I was wanting it to be more of a analysis between the Sioux and the Indians, as I... Well, I SEEN then, as being both similar in that they are both cavalry-based civilizations with no true artillery units( Siege Elephants and Flail Elephants dont fully count as "true" artillery on my eyes, but as artllery/cavalry hybrids, even if the game treats then as artillery ). Although apparently people here arent actually too big on Indian cavalry :p -Sigh-The truth is, I actually started plaiyng this game just a few months ago and havent got into the competitive scene yet. A part of me is feeling tempted to delete this topic and just remake a new one later when I have more experience.

[Garja]

India is not a cav based civ. The fact that they have been given camels and elephants, with more of a an antiinfantry design of sowar and mahout is quite telling about that. A cav civ must have strong overall cav and also specialized cav.
India Sowar is the most upgradable unit but that's just cause India don't have many card upgrades for its units in general.

[Gendarme]

Well, if you think of all elephants as cavalry, then they have a very diverse cavalry regiment with elephants and camels. Competitively their infantry is just strong as shit while sowars, zamburaks, mahouts, flail elephants, and siege elephants are very specialized (i.e. good at one thing only), contrary to the common hussars and dragoons. Despite their large variety of cavalry units, you tend to mostly see infantry from the Indian players.