Meele infantry.

[DracoWolfgand]

So, how usefull is meele infantry on this game anyway?

Looking at the "default" European meele infantry units( The Pikeman and the Halberdier ), I, to be brutally honest, -Very-Rarely find myself using then. I think the only civilization I use then with with any kind of frequency is the Dutch, and that mostly because they lack Musketeers, Musketeers are... Just better, 90% of the time.

Looking at unique infantry units: The Doppelsoldner and the Samurai actually CAN have their uses, IMO, against certain cavalry units that are too strong for the Musketeers/Ashigaru Musketeer to handle on their own( Such as Cuirassiers or Lancers. ). You might argue that you should be using light cavalry units against those, but need I remind you that the Japanese standart light cavalry unit, the Yabusame, ahem... Sucks? To a lesser extent, I would say they are better then Musketeers against some other units as well due to their area damage, such as Cossacks and Coyote Runners. Unfortunatelly, they suffer from some crippling weaknesses, perhaps the most severe one being the fact that, thanks to how walls work in this game, they are amongst the few units that-Cant-Attack over walls... With that said, most of what the Aztecs offer is pretty decent, for their respective functions, of course. And, as the Chinese, much like the case of the Dutch, you kind of have to rely on their meele infantry units, not because they are great, but because they have no ranged heavy infantry and you just need SOMETHING to stand between your light infantry and your opponent cavalry.

So yeah. Did I left something out? Also, does anyone here feels meele infantry could use a buff? I guess it makes sense in historical terms that they would not be very usefull, considering it is the age of gunpowder, but in gameplay terms, I just feel making then more viable would add more variety to the table.

[Gendarme]

Slow melee units can naturally be kited so that's a major weakness they have, but that's basically it. If the situation is such that the enemy won't be able to kite (e.g. snared or cornered), this type of unit is pretty strong. Doppelsoldners are actually not that uncommon, and plenty of people have Ronin shipments in Fortress Age as Portuguese. You just need to be skilled and knowledgeable to be able to minimize their weakness. Watch Aizamk's games and you'll see him successfully make use of uncommon units a lot.

[DracoWolfgand]

I think Musketeers/Ashigaru Musketeer have some advantages over Doppelsoldners/Samurai( Sorry for using the duality, but these units are arguably counterparts of eachother. ). A fairly big one, for me, is the ability to attack over walls. This is probably more important for the Japanese then for the Germans, though, as the Japanese are definitively the "turtler" of the two, but it always counts. Plus, the ranged attack makes then less vulnerable to kiting, obviously, particularly by the omnipresent, obnoxious Dragoons. There is one more advantage, but that is actually one you wouldnt expect, which is bulk. Although the Samurai DOES have more hitpoints then the Ashigaru Musketeer( And, again, same for the Dopplesoldner/ Musketeer )... It takes up twice the population. So, if we are talking in terms of hitpoints per population spot, the ranged infantry here, on their case, is actually-Meatier-Then the meele infantry. On another hand, Samurai and Doppelsoldners hit like trucks and hit in a area, what makes then, when you consider their costs, actually somewhat of a "glass cannon". Unfortunatelly, "Glass cannon" and "Vulnerable to kiting" dont go well together in my books.

[dansil92]

You make some great points. Melee infantry is usually not a good idea. Dopps are good in a german mirror and vs aztec but not much else (after the church upgrade and advanced arsenal speed boost they are pretty good but thats a lot of investment). Aztec has really good melee units and can abuse stealth with jaguars but their ranged units are better (but for the record jaguars are the best hand infantry in the game). Samarai are good for trolling and rushing and vs cuirs but not much else. Halb artillery combo is good against civs without good ranged cavalry (russia china japan etc.) But not as good as ruyter artillery (but does have more seige and hitpoints total). Halb grenadier is a trolly combo but does extremely well against aztec and i have had some moderate success with the combo vs japan and russia. China has to use melee infamtry because villagers are better anti cav keshiks are a bit weaker than other ranged cavalry. I think of hand infantry as more of a rush unit where you are using their seige to cripple an opponent and house them but not terribly useful after about 6:00 mark

[DracoWolfgand]

I actually feel Keshiks are fine. Sorta of a worse version of Ruyters( What sounds like a insult, but I think Ruyers are great, so what I am really saiyng is "Well, they are kinda average ): Not good in small scale battles, but in large scale battles they make up for it for their ability to be massed to a very large degree and focus fire to take enemy cavalry quicker. With that said, I would not want to be using then as "meatshields". They are too frail, their meele attack is too weak, and they would not be able to be using their typical hit-and-run antics without breaking formation.

I did forgot mentioning Samurai and Doppelsoldners can be a bit hard to counter in the Colonial Age, depending on the matchup. That is because the "best" anti-infantry unit most European civilizations get on that age is the Crossbowman... Which sucks. However, since they are also costly, slow, and surprisingly not as bulky as you would think for their cost, I would recomend not using then against any civilization that gets Skirmishers, or a "Skirmisher-esque" unit( Like the Gurkha, the Abus Gun, you know the type ) on the Colonial Age, though, as they would be too expensive and too much of a loss if they get killed.

[deleted_user0]

Melee infantry is fine if you know how to use them. Theyre usually paired with ranged infantry, but theyre actually most lethal in conjuction with heavy cavalry or cannons. The best regular ones are rodeleros, pumas, changdao and japanese clubmen from the shogun

[Gendarme]

Dopps are good in a german mirror and vs aztec but not much else

@Challe

[DracoWolfgand]

Melee infantry is fine if you know how to use them. Theyre usually paired with ranged infantry, but theyre actually most lethal in conjuction with heavy cavalry or cannons. The best regular ones are rodeleros, pumas, changdao and japanese clubmen from the shogun

I can see the logic of wanting to pair artillery units with meele heavy infantry, but pairing then with heavy cavalry? Wouldnt they... Kind of slow the heavy cavalry down? I dont know, this just sounds like it would demand a lot of micromanaging...

Pumas are fine for the Colonial Age, but by the Fortress Age I would MUCH rather be using the Jaguars. Faster, more versatile, and have stealth, too. The Changdao Swordsman and Japanese Clubman are also decent, but I never seen then as anything special: If anything, the Changdao Swordsman, like most Chinese infantry, suffer from a serious problem in that it is quite population-inefficient. I would also argue that, if your objective is to shield your artillery, the Japanese clubman is not a optimal unit for this purpose either. The Ashigaru Musketeers-Or even the Samurai, who are devastating against meele cavalry-Would be better. Cant speak much about how they work paired with meele cavalry, though... Then again, the Naginata Rider is hardly bragging material.

[dansil92]

Umeu is right on this one. Technically only musketeers do well against a combo of dopp uhlan in age 2... (still not the optimal way to play german tho) Against a civ without musketeers dopp-uhlan or lancer-rodelero is extremely difficult to counter (as a mainly aztec player, lancer rodelero is absolutely the worst to deal with because lancers hard counter every unit but two and rods counter erks and coyotes and can keep up with both).

[Challe]

Dopps are good in a german mirror and vs aztec but not much else

@Challe

lul longbowmen-_-

[DracoWolfgand]

Yeah, having every single unit in your army take bonus damage from Lancer-type cavalry can make some matchups a real pain if you are plaiyng as the Aztecs :p

I heard of Lancers + Rodeleros, but I prefer Lancers + Dragoon, because they are easier to micromanage. At either case, I would say sufficiently well micromanaged Dragoons can easily handle Doppelsoldners + Uhlans and Lancers + Rodeleros through sheer abusing of kiting. The Aztecs HAVE the Eagle Runner Knight, which cangenerally fulfill a "Close enough" role... But it is one of those times where the relative lack of speed of Aztec "cavalry" when compared to TRUE cavalry units really bites you in the ass. If Lancers( Or even Uhlans due to their massive Attack stat ) reach the Eagle Runner Knights in meele combat, you will have some trouble...

[dansil92]

ERKs dont take bonus damage from lancers but they do from rodeleros and they definitely should beat uhlans but once cav reaches erks they die quickly (because unlike goons they go into melee mode automatically which is much weaker) (on ep where the multiplier on lancers has been nerfed it is much better and jaguars can take both lancers and rods quite readily) dragoon skirm definitely beats dop uhlan but in age 2 it is very strong and they both even have good seige damage (i would probably use that combo against poorly played china tbh)

[Hazza54321]

Rods are op and people still dont realise

[DracoWolfgand]

ERKs dont take bonus damage from lancers but they do from rodeleros and they definitely should beat uhlans but once cav reaches erks they die quickly (because unlike goons they go into melee mode automatically which is much weaker) (on ep where the multiplier on lancers has been nerfed it is much better and jaguars can take both lancers and rods quite readily) dragoon skirm definitely beats dop uhlan but in age 2 it is very strong and they both even have good seige damage (i would probably use that combo against poorly played china tbh)

Decided to test it, and, huh. To be honest, I already knew they took bonus damage from Rodeleros, but I-Didnt-Knew that they-Didnt-Took bonus damage from Lancer-type cavalry. This is weird. I know Coyotte Runners get destroyed by Lancer-type cavalry, so I assumed the same would go for the Eagle Runners, but I guess I was wrong. Well... Obviously, they still shouldnt let the Lancers GET to meele, though, but still...

[aligator92]

Lancers don't get multipliers vs coyotes either

[DracoWolfgand]

Lancers don't get multipliers vs coyotes either

Indeed they dont. I always assumed they did because of how poorly Coyotes fare against Lancers, relatively to how-Well-Hussars fare against then.

... Aztec units and how they interact with attack bonuses are weird.

[Gendarme]

Coyote-type units are generally weak against hand cavalry despite playing the same role. Generally their main advantage over normal hand cavalry is not having pathing issues.

[deleted_user0]

and anti cav has worse multipliers vs them. so pikes do less dmg vs a coyote than vs a hussar.

The reason you pair with cavalry is basically because of the speed of the melee unit. it doesnt work well with pikes, but if the unit is a bit tankier, then it works. you push them forward and zone out the dragoons, and then your cav just goes to town vs the ranged infantry. but ye, it doesn't work well vs musketeers. Rods lancer is the dream composition for this, but changdao meteor hammer also works very well. But I also always loved swiss pike cuirassier! rajput urumi mahout can work its wonders as well, if you dont have the coin for sepoy. but because sepoys are just so much better, and because both rajputs and mahouts aren't that great, this combo doesn't work as well as the others.

[Gendarme]

Cuir swiss pike sounds great vs Germany. If they do not expect it they will never make dops against France.

[dansil92]

Yeah coyotes don't do great vs lancers, but you can easily outnumber them and thats where coyotes shine. Its those stupid rodeleros that ruin my day. I hate those things when I play aztec ugh you don't realize how good 40 melee resist is until its too late



If you ever need a reminder how good swiss pikes can be:

https://youtu.be/ROuJVVhWGDM

[DracoWolfgand]

As a general rule, I am not much of a fan of mercenary units as a concept. Most of then are just "Take this default unit, make it more expensive but stronger", what is pretty boring.

With that said, analysing in terms of utility, Swiss Pikeman are amazing. It is basically what happens when you combine the superior bulk and attack of the Halberdier with the higher speed and better multipliers of the Pikeman. The outcome is a fairly powerfull unit that hits for borderline ridiculous amounts of damage when up against meele cavalry, and is a bit less vulnerable to Dragoons then standart meele infantry because its higher speed and HP makes then more likely to be able to find a way to corner Dragoons before diyng( Though that IS a bit map dependent... ). I do have a question, about the Cuirassier/Swiss Pikeman combo, though. See, from what I understand, mercenary civilizations are decided on the moment the map is generated, and they are the same for all civilizations. So, if you get Swiss Pikeman... Your opponent gets Swiss Pikeman too. ... To what extent is it worth the investiment to go with a strategy based around meele cavalry, even one as powerfull as the Cuirassier, on these circunstances?

[dansil92]

Well it is dependent on your opponent actually building a saloon which is a rare circumstance. What's your pr and eso name? Id love a 1v1 @DracoWolfgand

[Papist]

As a general rule, I am not much of a fan of mercenary units as a concept. Most of then are just "Take this default unit, make it more expensive but stronger", what is pretty boring.

With that said, analysing in terms of utility, Swiss Pikeman are amazing. It is basically what happens when you combine the superior bulk and attack of the Halberdier with the higher speed and better multipliers of the Pikeman. The outcome is a fairly powerfull unit that hits for borderline ridiculous amounts of damage when up against meele cavalry, and is a bit less vulnerable to Dragoons then standart meele infantry because its higher speed and HP makes then more likely to be able to find a way to corner Dragoons before diyng( Though that IS a bit map dependent... ). I do have a question, about the Cuirassier/Swiss Pikeman combo, though. See, from what I understand, mercenary civilizations are decided on the moment the map is generated, and they are the same for all civilizations. So, if you get Swiss Pikeman... Your opponent gets Swiss Pikeman too. ... To what extent is it worth the investiment to go with a strategy based around meele cavalry, even one as powerfull as the Cuirassier, on these circunstances?

Nobody actually builds mercs unless they're using Kaiser's advanced merc strat or are named Aizamk because they're too expensive. When people are talking about a cuirassier/Swiss pike combo, they're assuming you sent the age 3 shipment (which is much better value).

[DracoWolfgand]

As a general rule, I am not much of a fan of mercenary units as a concept. Most of then are just "Take this default unit, make it more expensive but stronger", what is pretty boring.

With that said, analysing in terms of utility, Swiss Pikeman are amazing. It is basically what happens when you combine the superior bulk and attack of the Halberdier with the higher speed and better multipliers of the Pikeman. The outcome is a fairly powerfull unit that hits for borderline ridiculous amounts of damage when up against meele cavalry, and is a bit less vulnerable to Dragoons then standart meele infantry because its higher speed and HP makes then more likely to be able to find a way to corner Dragoons before diyng( Though that IS a bit map dependent... ). I do have a question, about the Cuirassier/Swiss Pikeman combo, though. See, from what I understand, mercenary civilizations are decided on the moment the map is generated, and they are the same for all civilizations. So, if you get Swiss Pikeman... Your opponent gets Swiss Pikeman too. ... To what extent is it worth the investiment to go with a strategy based around meele cavalry, even one as powerfull as the Cuirassier, on these circunstances?

Nobody actually builds mercs unless they're using Kaiser's advanced merc strat or are named Aizamk because they're too expensive. When people are talking about a cuirassier/Swiss pike combo, they're assuming you sent the age 3 shipment (which is much better value).

If you mean building then from the Saloon, I-Might-Build then, if I get a really good one that fills a role my civilization would have trouble filling on its own( Like... Well, if I get the Swiss Pikeman and I am plaiyng as a civilization with relatively weak heavy infantry, like the French, for a example. ) With that said, it is less that I find mercenary units useless, and more that I find then... Boring, really.

There are also the unique mercenaries of the Asian civilizations, that can only be sent after you sent the Atonement card. I kind of like those, particularly the Yojimbo Cavalry Archer, which I hope that you will agree with me when I say that is a far superior replacement for the Yabusame.

[Gendarme]

@Rikikipu