Native Treaties Shipment/Native Warriors in general

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European Union scarm
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Native Treaties Shipment/Native Warriors in general

Post by scarm »

Hey Guys,

one caveat before i start: as i said before i don't have much experience or skill with sup, so i mainly want to hear opinions and spark a discussion, since theorycrafting and analysing a game is one of my favorite parts about gaming.

So, all eurocivs have access to the native treaties card, which grants them units from each allied tribe. This does'nt scale with the amount of TPs you have with each tribe, but does give you more units if allied with different tribes (e.g. 2 Apache TPs give you 3 Goons, the same as 1 Apache TP; but allying with Navajo and Apache grants you 5 skirms and 3 goons). Looking at these numbers, a 3 goons or 5 skirms shipment in age 2 does'nt seem too bad for me (ignoring the cost of putting up the tp for now), and if you manage to get both you get kinda insane value (most tribes shipments are worth around 450-500 resources, i.e. 2 tribes can get you around 1000 resources worth of units).

Could this actually be worth it on some maps or in some matchups, especially when going for an ATP gameplan anyways, mitigating the cost of the TP a bit (which otherwise kinda ruins the value). After all, some native units like the Apache or the conquistador don't seem too bad, and some do have useful techs like the cheyennes Bisons or the Crees CdBs. The Klamath, Cree and Cherokee Skirms also don't seem bad statwise (those only give you 4 Skirms unfortunately though).

Oh and to make that clear again: i am fully aware that natives and the native treaties card aren't optimal in standard buildorders, i want to debate the option of them being useful in certain scenarios.

For Reference: viewtopic.php?f=29&t=905
Vietnam duckzilla
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Re: Native Treaties Shipment/Native Warriors in general

Post by duckzilla »

They question is: what is your plan afterwards?`

Of course the card is quite nice to send, since it gives you so much value. I like native gameplay in general. But do you plan to go 100% native? What happens if you reach the force limit (8 Apaches for example)? What do you have to invest to get access to the different natives? Are the native trade posts distributed strategically or impossible to defend? Can you upgrade your native warriors sufficiently? Are they strong/mid-tier for the unit class?

In my opinion, this topic is quite complex. Even if you have multiple TPs, at some point you will have a force limit problem. Most countries do not have sufficient options to upgrade their native allies. You have to invest a lot, since you either use a shipment instead of getting villies or you have to pay 200w per trade post. The trade posts are usually not distributed favourably, which either means that you might lose some or that your units are not created where you need them. Finally, most native units are not really strong.

You mention the Klamath/Cherokee/Cree skirms. As far as I see it, these are not worth it to be built. Klamath and Cherokee lack the most important skirmisher stat: range. The Cree skirms have a lot of hp (though bad range resistance), but do low dmg. This is quite the opposite of what you want to have for a ranged unit.

There are some natives which are actually nice. Apache/Conquistadors are good units and have nice additional research upgrades in the trade post. I also like Zen pikemen, since they are really strong for a pike unit. I do not bother to build any of the other native units frequently, except for the case that I play French and use a full native deck. French have so many nice native cards, that they can make many natives feasible.
Whatever is written above: this is no financial advice.

Beati pauperes spiritu.
No Flag DracoWolfgand
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Re: Native Treaties Shipment/Native Warriors in general

Post by DracoWolfgand »

Actually, I personally thing the Klamath, Cherokee and Cree units are pretty okay during the Colonial Age, especially for most European civilizations. They lose a lot of utility after that, though.

As a general rule, native units are more effective at two stages of the game: During the Colonial Age, as some of these units can fill niches that your civilization would only be able to fill by itself later on, and if it ever gets there, on the Imperial Age, as they do not occupy population slots and, with the "Legendary Native Warriors" upgrade, become actually pretty strong.|

As for the "Native Treaty" card, obviouslt it is a very circunstancial and map-dependent card. On ideal circunstances, it can allow you to make a potentially powerfull Colonial Age rush with natives, particularly on maps with lots of native tribes, like Hispaniola. With that said, it is not a card I often include in my decks, because if you cant get a lot of Native posts built, and get it quickly, it gets useless very fast. It might be because I am somewhat of a defensive player, though.
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European Union scarm
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Re: Native Treaties Shipment/Native Warriors in general

Post by scarm »

I don't think there is a way around Nativeunits being useless in the mid or lategame, but they could, esp. with the shipment, maybe make for a strong colonial push with early goons or skirms. Speaking in villagerseconds the best shipments are the Cree, the Huron, the Cheyenne and the Sufi, all of them around the 800 mark. Hudson Bay/Great Lakes with Cree and Hurons maybe lol?
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Re: Native Treaties Shipment/Native Warriors in general

Post by duckzilla »

scarm wrote:I don't think there is a way around Nativeunits being useless in the mid or lategame, but they could, esp. with the shipment, maybe make for a strong colonial push with early goons or skirms. Speaking in villagerseconds the best shipments are the Cree, the Huron, the Cheyenne and the Sufi, all of them around the 800 mark. Hudson Bay/Great Lakes with Cree and Hurons maybe lol?

Some native units can still be strong in imperial. If you play french with the corresponding native cards, you can easily make use of Comanches for the whole game, since (with cards) they are the strongest dragoon unit in the game (apart from portuguese ranged goons).

The point is whether the native costs are even competitive. Maybe the unit is not worth what it costs and then you don't need to count its value in villager seconds.
Whatever is written above: this is no financial advice.

Beati pauperes spiritu.
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European Union scarm
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Re: Native Treaties Shipment/Native Warriors in general

Post by scarm »

I mean how relevant is imperial though? And even then you have to send 2 cards dedicated to natives, which as you pointed out one can only get a limited number of, while other upgrade cards you could have sent instead might have boosted more units. They have their place in treaty for that reason, but we aren't talking about treaty right now.

Yeah ik that, its still nice to see how much resources they basically represent, assuming all units in the game are roughly equally strong (which obviously isn't the case, but that is still a solid start for a comparison).
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Holy See Imperial Noob
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Re: Native Treaties Shipment/Native Warriors in general

Post by Imperial Noob »

On a map where there are 3 unique native villages, in a match where you plan colonial aggression anyway AND if your explorer is alive, to send 600w, build 3 nat TPs and send native treaties yields you an equivalent of slightly more than two consulate companies that cost no pop. A civ aiming at a deathball of units of all specializations in the colonial age could use it. For other purposes it is not worth it.
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Re: Native Treaties Shipment/Native Warriors in general

Post by edeholland »

I don't think there are maps with 3 different natives, except maybe Unknown. There are maps that can have 3 or 4 different ones, but even then the games chooses 2 of them when generating the map.
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Holy See Imperial Noob
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Re: Native Treaties Shipment/Native Warriors in general

Post by Imperial Noob »

edeholland wrote:I don't think there are maps with 3 different natives, except maybe Unknown. There are maps that can have 3 or 4 different ones, but even then the games chooses 2 of them when generating the map.

I happen to have checked that yesterday evening. Indeed there is not even one such map :O Now what...
Maybe it is the time for an EP map where there are 3 native tribes?
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Turkey HUMMAN
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Re: Native Treaties Shipment/Native Warriors in general

Post by HUMMAN »

Actually for me natives are most worth in late fortress:
-Mines are depleted
-Your pop reaches 200

At this position you can switch to plantations, but instead i invest wood in natives and arsenal upgrades and execute a big push. Especially in gp, where there are many posts and natives cost wood heavily.
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No Flag DracoWolfgand
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Re: Native Treaties Shipment/Native Warriors in general

Post by DracoWolfgand »

HUMMAN wrote:Actually for me natives are most worth in late fortress:
-Mines are depleted
-Your pop reaches 200

At this position you can switch to plantations, but instead i invest wood in natives and arsenal upgrades and execute a big push. Especially in gp, where there are many posts and natives cost wood heavily.


With all respect, dont most players start their switch to plantations-Before-Their mines are fully depleted, usually at some point in early or mid Fortress? Like... Precisely to do not allow for a small "void" where you are needing to build plantations to go back to having a good gold gathering rate?

Well... That is how I do it, anyway. Not sure if it is a good idea in competitive, but it always made sense to me :p
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Turkey HUMMAN
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Re: Native Treaties Shipment/Native Warriors in general

Post by HUMMAN »

Well usually 1-2 mines left and i research nat ups arsenal ups etc and make units with that gold instead of investing on aging or switching to plants.
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Poland pecelot
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Re: Native Treaties Shipment/Native Warriors in general

Post by pecelot »

you should always build natives in late game
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Sweden Gendarme
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Re: Native Treaties Shipment/Native Warriors in general

Post by Gendarme »

Maybe not if Chakrams or some dank shit. But having a large army is very beneficial. The more units you have, the less effective your opponent's units are (cause they die faster and deal less damage in their short insect-like lifetime).
Pay more attention to detail.
No Flag DracoWolfgand
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Re: Native Treaties Shipment/Native Warriors in general

Post by DracoWolfgand »

Noob question here: What is wrong with Chakrans? I always thought then a good, if gimmicky, unit. Kind of like a mid-term between a Skirmisher and a Grenadier.
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Re: Native Treaties Shipment/Native Warriors in general

Post by P i k i l i c »

Grenadiers are akward units and chakrams even have a bad siege attack
About Native treaties, it is better on vanilla even though TPs cost more
Consider not the one who speaks the truth, but the truth that is said

:hmm: AoE logic :hmm:
No Flag DracoWolfgand
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Re: Native Treaties Shipment/Native Warriors in general

Post by DracoWolfgand »

True, but Chakrams are still pretty good at their actual role, which is rapidly killing heavy infantry units, based on my experience.

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