No Flag DracoWolfgand
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15 Dec 2018, 10:10

Hmmm... This might be as good of a moment as any for me to ask a noob question: "Why do the Russians struggle so much against the Ottomans to begin with?"

Generally, in most of my matches, a Russian player would take advantage of Russia superior early game economy and their... Interesting, although obnoxious, form of a Tower rush, as to harass the hell out of the Ottomans in the Colonial Age. The Ottomans actually have to be even more carefull then most civs not to lose any Settlers early on, and they in general demand lots of care managing their population too, so they most certainly dont like being rushed. I assume a experienced Ottoman player would already have planned for this kind of antics, though? The obvious solution would be to wall up... Then again, Russia also has the Oprichniks as a decent early game "Pseudo-siege" weapon....
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France [Armag] diarouga
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15 Dec 2018, 12:08

DracoWolfgand wrote:Hmmm... This might be as good of a moment as any for me to ask a noob question: "Why do the Russians struggle so much against the Ottomans to begin with?"

Generally, in most of my matches, a Russian player would take advantage of Russia superior early game economy and their... Interesting, although obnoxious, form of a Tower rush, as to harass the hell out of the Ottomans in the Colonial Age. The Ottomans actually have to be even more carefull then most civs not to lose any Settlers early on, and they in general demand lots of care managing their population too, so they most certainly dont like being rushed. I assume a experienced Ottoman player would already have planned for this kind of antics, though? The obvious solution would be to wall up... Then again, Russia also has the Oprichniks as a decent early game "Pseudo-siege" weapon....

wtf?
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Canada dansil92
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15 Dec 2018, 12:09

Otto russia is a weird match up for a few reasons. Russia struggles because jans are so tanky and strelets take much longer to take down a mass of jans than any other musketeer type unit. Otto ages much faster than them as well giving them time to be ready to defend against early russian aggression and simply because cossacks are less tanky than hussars they can really have trouble getting close to abus guns that are even decently microed. Russias main advantage early game is their cav shipments which rarely accomplish much against Otto as there are only like, 9 settlers to try to find and are usually sitting under the town centre. They can usually kill the otto explorer if he is building tps tho.

Otto struggles because abus overkill strelets so hard it makes it nearly impossible to take advantage of the sheer dps of a jan abus mass effeciently. Getting your tp eco going is difficult against a 5-4-13 type strat from russia and that can hurt with otto units being so expensive vs. Such cost effective russia units.

Russia has one slight advantage and that is that otto rarely goes cav early on meaning that russias main weakness (anti cav) is more or less negated.

Otto can mix in a few grenadiers (great cards age 2 which also boost abus and already have a foundry up) against russias infantry masses but will need to make sure they have either a few hussars to snare or a few jans in melee if possible to let the grens do damage. Russia will never make grens anyways but if they do, abus will just shred them before they get one throw.

Russia will have trouble punishing an otto ff and their ff is a bit slow to match. Falconets are not easy to deal with for russia age 2 and dont get much from going 3 either. Yeah russia can ff aiz style with 20 vills and then just gather the resources for fortress and thats pretty quick but then what. Abus shred through artillery too quickly making a falc shipment risky. The only shadow tech units russia gets is halberdiers and cav archers so you have to upgrade your cossacks and musks and strelets.
Its a weird matchup and decicion making, micro, composition,macro, and map control are extremely important but i would say russia has the advantage on no tp maps, otto favoured on tp maps
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France [Armag] diarouga
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15 Dec 2018, 12:25

ff is the hardest part of the MU imo. Age 2 is already very hard to win with Russia though.
No Flag DracoWolfgand
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15 Dec 2018, 12:28

Okay, here is what I am not getting, you all seem to be talking as if the Russian economy was slower then Ottoman economy, which I... Never actually seen that way. The Russians have cheaper Settlers, which are also trained in blocks of 3, meaning they can get Settlers out faster. Their Blockhouses also, in the early game, essentially act like a combination between a Outpost, a Barracks, and a House( Although their build limit, plus their lower population, means you shouldnt be building then-Instead-Of houses ), meaning you can have less villagers on wood and more villagers on food early on, meaning faster age-ups. In the meanwhile, the Ottomans... Well, their villagers are free, yes, but they spawn very slowly. You also cant just "turn off" the Town Centers ability to spawn villagers when you dont need it, meaning that you will be forced to invest a lot on wood( For houses ) early on, thus meaning you will be putting-Less-Villagers on food early on, thus meaning slower aging up time

Am I... Really good at plaiyng as the Russians, or really bad at plaiyng as the Ottomans? It has-Got-To be one of these two options, because I never got the feeling the Ottomans had a faster economy then the Russians. I am aware most of you are probably more experienced then me, but I just feel like there is some tactic you are taking for granted that I just didnt figured out yet.
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Canada dansil92
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15 Dec 2018, 12:36

Otto doesnt need eco, just shipments @DracoWolfgand
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France Kaiserklein
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15 Dec 2018, 12:42

Otto has the worst eco but they don't spend resources on training settlers, and they start with a TP so they get a ton of shipments in. On the other hand, russia has a great eco at some point, but it takes a while, and meanwhile they have to bank a lot of food to queue settlers/batches of units, so they're a bit slow. In other words, it's not about eco here, it's about how many units otto is gonna be able to get early on compared to russia.
Can sirmusket calculate 5x - x??
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Germany duckzilla
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15 Dec 2018, 12:45

Also you've got to ask what a "faster economy" is actually. You could argue that Ottoman economy starts vastly superior (and faster) due to more starting vills than Russia. Of course the Russian ability of producing multiple villagers at a discount makes up for this in the end. Nevertheless, Ottomans profit from the fact that they do not need to invest 540 food (or more) into building villagers in age II. They can just devote any resource income directly for the next age up. Also Ottomans do not necessarily make use of market upgrades, which might be different for Russia. Here you can again save resources for a faster age up to fortress age.

The Ottoman economy taken by itself is weaker than the Russian one. But Ottomans can make up for this due to their strong units and the ability to age up fast to get the next unit tier (cannons). As soon as you wipe out an Ottomans army, the game is basically over. Russians have far better options for recovery.
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France Kaiserklein
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15 Dec 2018, 13:48

Ofc otto virtually starts with a great eco. At a given time, a generic civ has 5 vils on food dedicated to only be producing more vils. So you can consider it's a +5 vil eco boost for otto basically. Obviously in the long run it sucks for otto since their vils train slower, but early on they just have 5 more vils gathering for units, age up, etc. Btw they also pop almost 2 vils while aging to colonial, while other euro civs can't, and they get the 3v shipment extra early cause TP. So yeah otto just stacks more resources than any other civ early on for that reason, and get more shipments too.

On the other hand, russia needs like 7 vils on food just to prod vils, and need to stack almost 300f just to start queuing musks. Much slower than otto obviously.
Can sirmusket calculate 5x - x??
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China _JDK_solarwind
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15 Dec 2018, 14:33

dansil92 wrote:Otto russia is a weird match up for a few reasons. Russia struggles because jans are so tanky and strelets take much longer to take down a mass of jans than any other musketeer type unit. Otto ages much faster than them as well giving them time to be ready to defend against early russian aggression and simply because cossacks are less tanky than hussars they can really have trouble getting close to abus guns that are even decently microed. Russias main advantage early game is their cav shipments which rarely accomplish much against Otto as there are only like, 9 settlers to try to find and are usually sitting under the town centre. They can usually kill the otto explorer if he is building tps tho.

Otto struggles because abus overkill strelets so hard it makes it nearly impossible to take advantage of the sheer dps of a jan abus mass effeciently. Getting your tp eco going is difficult against a 5-4-13 type strat from russia and that can hurt with otto units being so expensive vs. Such cost effective russia units.

Russia has one slight advantage and that is that otto rarely goes cav early on meaning that russias main weakness (anti cav) is more or less negated.

Otto can mix in a few grenadiers (great cards age 2 which also boost abus and already have a foundry up) against russias infantry masses but will need to make sure they have either a few hussars to snare or a few jans in melee if possible to let the grens do damage. Russia will never make grens anyways but if they do, abus will just shred them before they get one throw.

Russia will have trouble punishing an otto ff and their ff is a bit slow to match. Falconets are not easy to deal with for russia age 2 and dont get much from going 3 either. Yeah russia can ff aiz style with 20 vills and then just gather the resources for fortress and thats pretty quick but then what. Abus shred through artillery too quickly making a falc shipment risky. The only shadow tech units russia gets is halberdiers and cav archers so you have to upgrade your cossacks and musks and strelets.
Its a weird matchup and decicion making, micro, composition,macro, and map control are extremely important but i would say russia has the advantage on no tp maps, otto favoured on tp maps


Well apparently TP can greatly determine the result of a match up between RU and OT, but you said something important, which is decision making, it's an extremely important thing during the match up since Ottos are hard to scout, and of course, any other things in RU & OT match up are all extreme important, because the error tolerance for Russia is rather tough.
No Flag DracoWolfgand
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15 Dec 2018, 15:13

Hmmmmm... Question, after reading all of these posts: Would it be a better idea if I were to start doing a... Errrr... "Fast Colonial" tactic as the Ottomans?

As in, rather then building several economical buildings and waiting until my villagers reach a certain critical mass( I tend to do it as 20 with most civilizations ), just build a mill, focus all my villagers into gathering food from this point onwards, so I can age up to the Colonial Age as fast as possible( Even if it means getting there with, like, only about 10 villagers )? It just seems that, if I am going to be reliyng on shipmennts rather then sheer economical power( And I am plaiyng as a civ that masses settlers in a snail pace anyway ), it might be a better idea for me to try to get to the Colonial Age as fast as possible and THEN start building up my economy, as I know I will be able to ship Janissaries( Which can handle almost everything the Russians have on the Colonial Age except the Strelets, and even then they need to be pretty badly outnumbered ) to help me out on the early Colonial Age even if I dont have a lot of resources yet. This sounds like it would be a incredibly bad idea with pretty much anyone else except the Ottomans, which is why I never tried it out, but... I dont know, maybe that could make up for my problem with having a slow start as then...
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15 Dec 2018, 15:23

As Russia I believe you have to rush every game against ottomans unless it's maybe a strong water map or some different map like Deccan.

Your best bet to win on re for age 2 (in my experience) is to do an all in rush like 17 settlers then stop for just unit spam to idle.
Right when you age you want to put a batch of units in asap over settlers so you can be as fast as possible into his base and then send 5 cossacks.
If the Ottoman player builds an artillery foundry with 700 wood you should be able to win the game as you can just spam strelets (and some musk for the 3 huss shipment if needed) against just jans and idle otto so he can't get the artillery foundry up quick. Keep idling him as much as you can so he can't get a good enough mass and not too many abus guns. You will soon have to send 700c for cossack spam to help better deal with the abus and to tank for your infantry. With the boyars upgrade to it's pretty good as jans only had 20 range attack and only a times 2 against cav in melee.
Try to snipe the abus with your cav and strelets then you can just attack move and win and keep idling him.
When you think you can make some settlers you can but if you over do it and let your blockhouse idle for too long to make some settler it may mean you just lose when otto pushs your blockhouse if he held or gets a decent size of a mass.
The thing had otto has over your army is range with the abus guns so if he stays age 2 and your pushed back you will need to wait for him to come to your blockhouse and then fight and stop all settlers production for all units and even minute men if your town center isn't too far away.
Your mass should be big enough to hold and push afterwards. Hopefully you will have boyars in as that's a huge upgrade and makes abus 3 shot strelets now.
Since you aren't making settlers 24/7 your army should be good enough and the best thing otto can do is to poke 24/7 at your blockhouse and get free kills if you let otto do that.
The ottoman player will have to put down a barracks and a stable or an artillery foundry down right when they age up with the 400 wood if they would want to stop this push but I don't see any buddy do that but it's the ottos best bet to hold without getting idled.

Now if otto goes for a fast age up I still think your best bet is to idle him and most important is to make sure his mass doesn't get too big otherwise your dead.
You will probably have to skip settlers again to make sure his army doesn't get too big. He can't send 2 cannons if he has no units to protect them. You will have to make cossacks again and your best bet is to add more musks as well.
If he hasn't been making any units while you are idling him you can expect him to send 5 spahis so get prepared for that and focus one by one.

On the other hand if the ottoman player walls their whole base mostly or all of it you can bet your dead since there isn't much you can do at that point but to age up as well and try to get a snipe on his cannons with yours. If they wall you can just wall as well to protect your own army from the ottomans strong cav shipments in age 3.
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Germany duckzilla
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15 Dec 2018, 15:26

Wait, what?

Do you age up from discovery to colonial with 20 villagers? And you construct a mill in between?

Just to clear up how the usual approach to early Ottoman eco management is:
  • Start with 5 villagers on gathering food at nearby hunts + 2 villagers gathering the wood crates and other crates afterwards
  • Use wood to construct: 1x trade post, 1x house, 1x mosque (xp gain)
  • First card is three villagers
  • Send all newly build villagers (as well as the crate collectors) to gather food at your hunt
  • Age-up to colonial
The benefits of this build are that you 1) age-up earlier than anyone else, 2) have a shipment ready to send in colonial (e.g. Jans for a push or Hussar for raid or 700 gold for the next age-up) and 3) take the map by setting up your forward base before the opponent has the option to do so (alternatively, you can attack a russian forward base before he has units). This is basically your only true advantage when playing Ottoman over other civs!

Also you should never switch to mills as long as there are hunts on your side of the map. Try to micro them into your base by shooting at them with a villager from the right angle.

[lots of edits to add stuff]
"To counter the pike-boom, you must become the pike-boom." - Karl V. (HRE)
No Flag DracoWolfgand
Skirmisher
Posts: 116

15 Dec 2018, 15:37

duckzilla wrote:Wait, what?

Do you age up from discovery to colonial with 20 villagers? And you construct a mill in between?

Just to clear up how the usual approach to early Ottoman eco management is:
  • Start with 5 villagers on gathering food at nearby hunts + 2 villagers gathering the wood crates and other crates afterwards
  • Use wood to construct: 1x trade post, 1x house, 1x mosque (xp gain)
  • First card is three villagers
  • Send all newly build villagers (as well as the crate collectors) to gather food at your hunt
  • Age-up to colonial
The benefits of this build are that you 1) age-up earlier than anyone else, 2) have a shipment ready to send in colonial (e.g. Jans for a push or Hussar for raid or 700 gold for the next age-up) and 3) take the map by setting up your forward base before the opponent has the option to do so (alternatively, you can attack a russian forward base before he has units). This is basically your only true advantage when playing Ottoman over other civs!

Also you should never switch to mills as long as there are hunts on your side of the map. Try to micro them into your base by shooting at them with a villager from the right angle.

[lots of edits to add stuff]


Well, thanks, will start doing that from now on!

Once we are on the topic, with how many villagers do you usually age up with when NOT plaiyng as the Ottomans? Like... I am assuming that this what you described is basically just a Ottoman tactic,
China _JDK_solarwind
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15 Dec 2018, 15:38

saveyourskill wrote:As Russia I believe you have to rush every game against ottomans unless it's maybe a strong water map or some different map like Deccan.

Your best bet to win on re for age 2 (in my experience) is to do an all in rush like 17 settlers then stop for just unit spam to idle.
Right when you age you want to put a batch of units in asap over settlers so you can be as fast as possible into his base and then send 5 cossacks.
If the Ottoman player builds an artillery foundry with 700 wood you should be able to win the game as you can just spam strelets (and some musk for the 3 huss shipment if needed) against just jans and idle otto so he can't get the artillery foundry up quick. Keep idling him as much as you can so he can't get a good enough mass and not too many abus guns. You will soon have to send 700c for cossack spam to help better deal with the abus and to tank for your infantry. With the boyars upgrade to it's pretty good as jans only had 20 range attack and only a times 2 against cav in melee.
Try to snipe the abus with your cav and strelets then you can just attack move and win and keep idling him.
When you think you can make some settlers you can but if you over do it and let your blockhouse idle for too long to make some settler it may mean you just lose when otto pushs your blockhouse if he held or gets a decent size of a mass.
The thing had otto has over your army is range with the abus guns so if he stays age 2 and your pushed back you will need to wait for him to come to your blockhouse and then fight and stop all settlers production for all units and even minute men if your town center isn't too far away.
Your mass should be big enough to hold and push afterwards. Hopefully you will have boyars in as that's a huge upgrade and makes abus 3 shot strelets now.
Since you aren't making settlers 24/7 your army should be good enough and the best thing otto can do is to poke 24/7 at your blockhouse and get free kills if you let otto do that.
The ottoman player will have to put down a barracks and a stable or an artillery foundry down right when they age up with the 400 wood if they would want to stop this push but I don't see any buddy do that but it's the ottos best bet to hold without getting idled.

Now if otto goes for a fast age up I still think your best bet is to idle him and most important is to make sure his mass doesn't get too big otherwise your dead.
You will probably have to skip settlers again to make sure his army doesn't get too big. He can't send 2 cannons if he has no units to protect them. You will have to make cossacks again and your best bet is to add more musks as well.
If he hasn't been making any units while you are idling him you can expect him to send 5 spahis so get prepared for that and focus one by one.

On the other hand if the ottoman player walls their whole base mostly or all of it you can bet your dead since there isn't much you can do at that point but to age up as well and try to get a snipe on his cannons with yours. If they wall you can just wall as well to protect your own army from the ottomans strong cav shipments in age 3.


Yes, pretty much the same things I did before, very aggressive against colonial style Ottos and barrack ff Ottos, but the error tolerance is low though, if they walled up to secure their base very well and I have to age up, then I will highly likely be a dead man in this case. That's why I launched this topic, and discuss about error-tolerable solutions, such as develop eco+light pressure or something like that. :)
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Canada dansil92
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15 Dec 2018, 15:49

Yeah i would say aging with more than 12 vills as otto is always excessive. Against non warchief civs you age faster than anyone and are only slightly behind aztec and iro. Thats the advantage of ottoman! You get earlier barracks and colonial shipments with your free tradepost you can just spam coin and food shipments, and build up an infantry mass as quick as possible. Hussars are questionable but Against russia it might be worth considering.

If russia cant keep the mass of janisarries and abus small I dont think there's anything they can do about it. Falconets are quite useless against abus guns if they are not able to get off a volley at long range.

Russia depends heavily on map control because they eat through hunts nearly as quickly as britain. You need to keep so much food banked to keep vill production and military production simultaneously because you cant just queue one musk or strelet you have to have the full amount ready. If otto can idle you for even 15 seconds there is no way you can keep both up. Russia has to be played very efficiently with flawless macro against otto or the runaway ball of jan abus is going to be impossible to deal with. Even boyars coss strel is going to be unable to pick off enough units cost effectively unless the otto player misclicks their abus towards your cossacks or, you know, deletes their units lol
The reason it is such an intriguing and bloody matchup is that they both can punish the other civ so hard for mistakes, more than any other vanilla matchup. Russia must keep map control and deny tp spamming from otto and otto has to keep tps and deny hunts from russia to keep their production low

@DracoWolfgand depends on the civ but between 15 and 17 vills worth
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United States of America saveyourskill
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Posts: 158

15 Dec 2018, 15:52

Well yeah before they wall up you would want to scout if they are doing age 2 play or not if they are doing age 2 then you can just adapt and make some settlers and control the trade post line depends on how slow they are from what you saw in base.
The same goes for age 2 in my post you have to wait for them to come to your blockhouse and scout ahead of time so you can stop making settlers and make all units before they are at your blockhouse.

If they are doing age 3 with walls I don't think you will be able to win but you have to outplay/ get really good trades in order to win if they go for a fast age up with walls.

Hopefully they won't wall cause walls are overpowered and there isn't much you can do if they do wall hard and do an age up play.

I can only say to go for some eco play and spam walls as well to buy time and to take good fights for yourself. Like taking out their 2 cannons with yours so you will have 2 cannons and they won't.

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France Kaiserklein
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15 Dec 2018, 18:26

DracoWolfgand wrote:Well, thanks, will start doing that from now on!

Once we are on the topic, with how many villagers do you usually age up with when NOT plaiyng as the Ottomans? Like... I am assuming that this what you described is basically just a Ottoman tactic,

Each civ has an optimal vil count to age up. Otto and asian civs don't really have that since they train vils while aging, so the vil count to age isn't really important. If you're not sure, I'd say a general rule of thumb is to stop making vils and age up if you have at least like 650-700f banked towards the 800f, though that varies a lot depending on the map, civ, treasures, livestock, etc. If I had to make a list of optimal vil counts before age up on EP, it would look like this:

- France: usually 14, 13 if you can
- Germany: usually 17, sometimes have to go 18 if you build a TP or market
- Brits: 17 on 300w start (cause one extra manor), 16 on 200w start
- Dutch: usually 15, 14 is possible on coin starts
- Russia: 14
- Spain: usually 15, sometimes might have to 16
- Ports: usually 13, might have to 14 on some starts
- Sioux: usually 15, 14 if you can
- Iro: sometimes 15 sometimes 14
- Aztecs: 15

duckzilla wrote:Just to clear up how the usual approach to early Ottoman eco management is:
  • Start with 5 villagers on gathering food at nearby hunts + 2 villagers gathering the wood crates and other crates afterwards
  • Use wood to construct: 1x trade post, 1x house, 1x mosque (xp gain)
  • First card is three villagers
  • Send all newly build villagers (as well as the crate collectors) to gather food at your hunt
  • Age-up to colonial

That's right, except a couple details. You don't wanna send 3 vils on hunts directly if your starting hunt is a bit far. It's then a bit better to send only one vil to herd while keeping other vils on crates, to reduce walking time. Also you can't build a mosque on a 300w start (only TP + house), and I'd add that on RE, you quite often don't build a mosque at all and keep the wood for the second TP in transition to colonial instead, because the mosque is quite shitty there.
Can sirmusket calculate 5x - x??
LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
China _JDK_solarwind
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15 Dec 2018, 18:43

saveyourskill wrote:Well yeah before they wall up you would want to scout if they are doing age 2 play or not if they are doing age 2 then you can just adapt and make some settlers and control the trade post line depends on how slow they are from what you saw in base.
The same goes for age 2 in my post you have to wait for them to come to your blockhouse and scout ahead of time so you can stop making settlers and make all units before they are at your blockhouse.

If they are doing age 3 with walls I don't think you will be able to win but you have to outplay/ get really good trades in order to win if they go for a fast age up with walls.

Hopefully they won't wall cause walls are overpowered and there isn't much you can do if they do wall hard and do an age up play.

I can only say to go for some eco play and spam walls as well to buy time and to take good fights for yourself. Like taking out their 2 cannons with yours so you will have 2 cannons and they won't.

@_JDK_solarwind

Yeah, agree. Thank you:)

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