Falc vs Horse Art

[WickedCossack]

Anyone want to do some quick analysis for which is better late game? Maybe some treaty players know.

Falcs have cost, hitpoints (per cost) and pop space on their side. Horse art have better attack. But there's also damage caps, I think horse art has a higher damage cap to be fair? Do upgrades boost damage caps?

[Papist]

Horse art are also faster, which makes them easier to maneuver during a fight. Obvious, but still worth mentioning when comparing stats

[Mitoe]

Damage caps are always 2x your current damage, and are, I believe, affected by upgrades.

I'm not sure exactly what the numbers are, but I'm pretty sure that per cost Falcs still do more damage, but Horse Artillery is mostly good in treaty because you can easily walk out of range when your opponent is unpacking something like culverins, for example.

Not as practical in Supremacy unless you're in super lategame because massing artillery is very costly and not something you will see very often.

[SoldieR]

I feel like field guns are significantly better, and one time long ago I tested with sirmusket and I'm pretty sure they are like 10x better vs buildings.

[Garja]

In boomy games the cost is less of a restriction so horse art with the extra mobility are better.

[dansil92]

Horse artillery is always the better unit. Faster even when in bombard mode, more damage. A small little 'tilt' reason is that they are also smaller on screen making it easier for your opponent to mismicro culverins as opposed to falcs which are larger targets

[Kaiserklein]

Horse art has 25% more damage and costs like 20% more. So I think in that regard falcs and horse art are equivalent. But because of the extra speed horse art is better imo

[Amsel_]

If you have 99 vils, and spend the remaining pop space on artillery, you could make 20 falcs (5 pop each), or 16 horse-artillery (6 pop each, technically 16.66666). So falconets would default to being 25% better, ceteris paribus. But falcs have 100 attack, and horse-artillery have 125. The rate of fire is the same, so if both are shooting at maximum efficiency: falcs will do 2,000 damage per volley; horse artillery will do 2,000 as well. (both have an equal rate of fire) This means they're both tied in terms of damage.

Now let's look at health. Both falcs and horse-artillery have 200 hitpoints. This means that falcs win in terms of HP, because you total out to 4,000 total HP; meanwhile horse-artillery gets 3,200. This means horse-artillery is at a severe deficit of 800 points when it comes to total health. But we also have to consider price. To make max-capacity falcs, you would need to spend 2,000 wood and 8,000 coin. Horse-artillery, on the other hand, would take 1,600 wood and 8,000 coin. That means horse-artillery will be cheaper in the long-run, as you will be saving 400 wood with each full-set.

But is horse-artillery actually cheaper? The fact that falcs have higher HP may make them more cost-efficient. In terms of villager seconds, a full-set of falcs will cost 20,000 villager seconds. (assuming gathering from trees and plantations, with no upgrades, which are both 0.5 per second) The full-set of horse-artillery will cost 19,200 villager seconds. Dividing the 4,000 HP falcs have by their 20,000 villager second cost gets us to find a cost of 1 villager second for every 0.2 HP. Doing the same for horse-artillery, one villager second gets us 0.1666666 HP. That would suggest that falcs are more cost-efficient; they give more bang for their buck than horse-artillery.

There are some other factors to consider though. If you maxed out on horse-artillery, you would have a bit of population space left over. This gives you room for some more shenanigans, but at a higher price. Horse-artillery is also faster. If your anti-cav consists mostly of dragoons, it can be very useful to speed across the map with such powerful artillery. But, mathematically, if you have two players spamming artillery at each other. One of them is making falcs and the other is making horse-artillery. The player making falcs should win.

Sources:
https://ageofempires.fandom.com/wiki/Falconet
https://ageofempires.fandom.com/wiki/Horse_Artillery
http://aoe3.heavengames.com/cgi-bin/for ... 32509,0,10

[pecelot]

I thought it was settled that horse artillery was better, no?

[Kaiserklein]

Well in treaty at least, it's common knowledge that horse art is superior. So I think in sup, since mobility matters more, it should be even more obvious

[SoldieR]

I'm going to need a video to convince me, because I was sure field guns were much better

[pecelot]

well, falcs pack and unpack faster, which is nice sometimes, especially when you have them with your infantry on the battlefield and there is no speed difference

[edeholland]

Damage caps are always 2x your current damage, and are, I believe, affected by upgrades.

Which is it?

[Mitoe]

Eaglemut would know better than I, but I don't really understand what he means by that.

[edeholland]

Looked up the stats.

Falconet

Code: Select all

<ProtoAction>
         <Name>CannonAttack</Name>
         <Damage>100.000000</Damage>
         <DamageType>Siege</DamageType>
         <MinRange>0.000000</MinRange>
         <MaxRange>26.000000</MaxRange>
         <ROF>4.000000</ROF>
         <DamageCap>200.000000</DamageCap>
         <DamageBonus type ='AbstractInfantry'>3.000000</DamageBonus>
         <DamageArea>3.000000</DamageArea>
         <DamageFlags>GAIAEnemy</DamageFlags>
         <DamageBonus type ='Building'>2.000000</DamageBonus>
         <DamageBonus type ='Ship'>3.000000</DamageBonus>
         <DamageBonus type ='xpArrowKnight'>0.500000</DamageBonus>
      </ProtoAction>

Horse art

Code: Select all

<ProtoAction>
         <Name>CannonAttack</Name>
         <Damage>125.000000</Damage>
         <DamageType>Siege</DamageType>
         <MinRange>0.000000</MinRange>
         <MaxRange>26.000000</MaxRange>
         <ROF>4.000000</ROF>
         <DamageCap>250.000000</DamageCap>
         <DamageBonus type ='AbstractInfantry'>3.000000</DamageBonus>
         <DamageArea>3.000000</DamageArea>
         <DamageFlags>GAIAEnemy</DamageFlags>
         <DamageBonus type ='Building'>2.000000</DamageBonus>
         <DamageBonus type ='Ship'>3.000000</DamageBonus>
         <DamageBonus type ='xpArrowKnight'>0.500000</DamageBonus>
      </ProtoAction>

So far, it seems you are both right. The damage caps I have seen are all 2 times the base damage, but also defined for each unit specifically. Not sure if there are exceptions yet. I also don't see yet how falconets would be 10x better against buildings, and how important that would be.

[duckzilla]

I recently saw that although horse artillery is only available in age IV, they actually do not shadow tech to guard lvl. You have to upgrade them to guard manually. This is quite confusing, since it seems to be the only (?) unit in the whole game which can be upgraded in the age it gets available for the first time.

This is can also be misleading when interpreting dmg numbers, since you would assume that the base stats of the unit are those of the corresponding age level (guard in this case). Falcs/horse artillery get exactly the same number of upgrades (guard + imp).

Horse artillery does 25% more dmg while costing 20% more res and 16% more pop. Sounds like a fair deal to me. It makes overkill more likely though. Maybe field guns are better against weaker units (strel/mace), since you can micro your cannons to minimize overkill.

[Mitoe]

I recently saw that although horse artillery is only available in age IV, they actually do not shadow tech to guard lvl. You have to upgrade them to guard manually. This is quite confusing, since it seems to be the only (?) unit in the whole game which can be upgraded in the age it gets available for the first time.

This is can also be misleading when interpreting dmg numbers, since you would assume that the base stats of the unit are those of the corresponding age level (guard in this case). Falcs/horse artillery get exactly the same number of upgrades (guard + imp).

Horse artillery does 25% more dmg while costing 20% more res and 16% more pop. Sounds like a fair deal to me. It makes overkill more likely though. Maybe field guns are better against weaker units (strel/mace), since you can micro your cannons to minimize overkill.

Light Cannons

[momuuu]

Mortars, morturarus too I think.

[deleted_user0]

#Allartillery (except heavy cannons,crows, gb etc) But their guard upgrade is only 250f 250w