MU of the month: Spain vs China

[PeachTree]

Are rodeleros useless vs china? Ive only seen skirm falcs and lancers used vs china

[Mitoe]

Rods are fine vs China, but it depends a lot on their unit composition. You don't want rods vs pure Territorial Army.

[deleted_user0]

Considering that ATP ff is 8minutes at least and with tower in base/destroyed I don't think it's too late.

atp ff is faster np. you can just atp ff at 7.30 or 7.45 with good macro and a decent tres. tho i guess not if you make too many tp's. if you atp ff, make 2 tps in trans and then make 1-2 more when aging to 3, you can age that time. otherwise ur slower i guess.

[Garja]

That's unrealistic. ATP is a card itself so you need 3 completed TPs just to have 700g ready. If you only drop 2 it's not even worth the card and in any case I don't think dropping extra TPs later is that good neither even possible sometimes (they will just get denied). And even wiht 7.30 or 7.45 age up your push isn't going to any scary because the lack of extra shipments/lack of resources to spam enough stuff (since you still gather more than the usual 200w for TPs).

[dansil92]

I suppose it is worth mentioning that both china and spain have access to a discovery age military unit (diciple and dogs) meaning that placing tps for either civ is risky to some extent. Also, wouldnt china outscale spain in colonial play? I know keshiks are awful but its still a ranged cav, and with the mongolian scourge card + standard army hitpoints steppe riders are going to be... well terrible but more cost effective than a hussar?
Also could china not just wall up and fi with the skirmishers to age 3 + ship hand mortars to counter falcs and easily win with an old han spam?

[Mitoe]

I'm not sure that China really outscales any civ in Colonial. Rod/Huss/Musk/Xbow is pretty difficult to deal with if you stay age 2. China does alright in early Colonial vs Spain with their military shipments, and then adding 12 redcoats later, but in late Colonial it's still difficult to compete. Spain has good cavalry upgrades and Keshiks are really not ideal vs rod/huss, where you need to be kiting a lot.

[dansil92]

I suppose it is difficult to micro against all those units, though microing against a mass of chuks, pikes, keshiks, steppes, maybe a flamethrower isnt much fun either. I would be interested to see colonial play out of both civs

[Garja]

I'm not sure that China really outscales any civ in Colonial. Rod/Huss/Musk/Xbow is pretty difficult to deal with if you stay age 2. China does alright in early Colonial vs Spain with their military shipments, and then adding 12 redcoats later, but in late Colonial it's still difficult to compete. Spain has good cavalry upgrades and Keshiks are really not ideal vs rod/huss, where you need to be kiting a lot.

China late colonial is superior to Spain one. All euro units are trash to fight late colonial because they're dont have good value per cost/train time. Also China units mostly cost food/wood.
Consulate adds up over time and China units are just harder counter and with better ups.

[Mitoe]

I'm not sure I'd call their upgrades "good." British consulate is good, Mongolian Scourge is ok if you actually train keshik, but Standard Army Hitpoints is kinda meh. HP isn't the stat you want on CKN really.

[dansil92]

I'm not sure I'd call their upgrades "good." British consulate is good, Mongolian Scourge is ok if you actually train keshik, but Standard Army Hitpoints is kinda meh. HP isn't the stat you want on CKN really.

But combined with the british consulate they get pretty tanky and tanky=cost effective. They already do very good dps. Same with steppe riders. If you have mongolian scourge they are decent at raiding and honestly they are so cheap

[DracoWolfgand]

Consulate does add up over time, yes... But... Well, if we are talking about the British consulate here, I feel that, by the time you can get a large enough amount of Musketeers to be a threat to the Spanish( Which also have Musketeers of their own ), they will probably advance to the Fortress age where they get two solid counters to the Musketeer: The classical Skirmisher and the infamous Lancer... Though, that depends on just how many resources they choose to put into raiding :p. The "To Fast Castle, or not to Fast Castle" question seems like one of the most important questions to awnser here.

I wonder what about a alliance with the Germans, though. Doppelsoldners are amongst the few infantry units that can actually stand up to Lancers on the Fortress Age, and the Germans trickles and passive bonus wouldnt be that bad either, I assume...

[Garja]

I'm not sure I'd call their upgrades "good." British consulate is good, Mongolian Scourge is ok if you actually train keshik, but Standard Army Hitpoints is kinda meh. HP isn't the stat you want on CKN really.

You are totally gonna make keshik if it is a colonial battle. And standard hitpoints is good because chokus are already a great unit (superior to xbows). Steppes won't have much of a use unless Spain has to go heavy on xbows once they realize musk/huss/xbow doesn't cut it full full choku/pike/keshik. In general, in the long run hard counter units are always better than general purpose units, unless the latter have outstanding stats.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Garja overrating China colonial. Classic.

[Hazza54321]

dunno why you tagged me i have no clue about 1v1

[[Armag] diarouga]

I tagged the guys who picked Spain or China for the mono civ cup

[deleted_user0]

That's unrealistic. ATP is a card itself so you need 3 completed TPs just to have 700g ready. If you only drop 2 it's not even worth the card and in any case I don't think dropping extra TPs later is that good neither even possible sometimes (they will just get denied). And even wiht 7.30 or 7.45 age up your push isn't going to any scary because the lack of extra shipments/lack of resources to spam enough stuff (since you still gather more than the usual 200w for TPs).

nah you don't. especially not with 200w start. it's true that it's worse on TAD than on nilla because of the spain xp nerf, but it really just depends on whether you will get the pass of the tp just after you build it or not. if you do, you will have xp for another shipment with 2 tps np.

[bwinner]

You talk a lot about spanish gold/1000f, I personnally always did spanish gold/1000w/1000f for being greedy. I know this is slower, but makes so much more mass and it might be ok if you stay in defense.
I am also curious about what compositions you go for ?
I usually do rods/lancer/skirms as spain here (+2falcs once I have a solide mass).
As china I am not sure, I think you want the mandchus here. Some skirms and redcoat aswell probably. Then I am not sure if you want a lot of cav and pikes because of the rods/lancer...
@Mitoe @Diarouga

[Garja]

That's unrealistic. ATP is a card itself so you need 3 completed TPs just to have 700g ready. If you only drop 2 it's not even worth the card and in any case I don't think dropping extra TPs later is that good neither even possible sometimes (they will just get denied). And even wiht 7.30 or 7.45 age up your push isn't going to any scary because the lack of extra shipments/lack of resources to spam enough stuff (since you still gather more than the usual 200w for TPs).

nah you don't. especially not with 200w start. it's true that it's worse on TAD than on nilla because of the spain xp nerf, but it really just depends on whether you will get the pass of the tp just after you build it or not. if you do, you will have xp for another shipment with 2 tps np.

You're refering to best conditions which happens only in a limited number of games. With a TP start ye you don't have any XP problem, but that's 1/6 of times. For the TP pass you need at least two passes and if your vill's TP isn't completed you won't have it.
In any case if the standard 19v FF is 7.45 it is simply not possible to do a 19v ATP in less than that. Any less vill ATP FF won't be any faster as it will be just idle time waiting for 1200f to pile up.

[deleted_user0]

That's unrealistic. ATP is a card itself so you need 3 completed TPs just to have 700g ready. If you only drop 2 it's not even worth the card and in any case I don't think dropping extra TPs later is that good neither even possible sometimes (they will just get denied). And even wiht 7.30 or 7.45 age up your push isn't going to any scary because the lack of extra shipments/lack of resources to spam enough stuff (since you still gather more than the usual 200w for TPs).

nah you don't. especially not with 200w start. it's true that it's worse on TAD than on nilla because of the spain xp nerf, but it really just depends on whether you will get the pass of the tp just after you build it or not. if you do, you will have xp for another shipment with 2 tps np.

You're refering to best conditions which happens only in a limited number of games. With a TP start ye you don't have any XP problem, but that's 1/6 of times. For the TP pass you need at least two passes and if your vill's TP isn't completed you won't have it.
In any case if the standard 19v FF is 7.45 it is simply not possible to do a 19v ATP in less than that. Any less vill ATP FF won't be any faster as it will be just idle time waiting for 1200f to pile up.

ye youre right, but this is just because of the TAD nerf to spain xp. otherwise spain could do 2 atp tps and make the rest in transition and still hit an 18v 7:30 age up. I did this bo in nilla all the time.

obviously though, imo you should talk about perfect conditions when you discuss a MU of the month, which feels more akin to tournament play (perfect conditions) than QS (general/average conditions)

[deleted_user0]

lol this mu of month got delayed a bit XD you guys should make 1 thread or something for it, where you post the youtube vids of the stream

[j_t_kirk]

lol this mu of month got delayed a bit XD you guys should make 1 thread or something for it, where you post the youtube vids of the stream

We have this thread with links to every MU of the Month/Week and I am always adding links to the videos/streams to the corresponding MU threads. Idk if we need an extra thread only for the vids.

[tedere12]

China wins this. Their units are just stronger

[deleted_user0]

lol this mu of month got delayed a bit XD you guys should make 1 thread or something for it, where you post the youtube vids of the stream

We have this thread with links to every MU of the Month/Week and I am always adding links to the videos/streams to the corresponding MU threads. Idk if we need an extra thread only for the vids.

k no need for a new thread then, just link the video in the first post.