Re: TP-Samwise BO
Posted: 11 Feb 2019, 18:53
I’m sorry rouga but you don’t know what you’re talking about this time. Most of the things you’re mentioning as ways to punish the build don’t work at all, which leads me to believe that this is mostly speculation on your part, whereas for me it’s experience.
I’ve played these situations out many times in the mirror. There’s no musk/huss timing vs 4v 700c if you go 4v 700w 700c unless you fb, and even if you fb the window is very very small. You simply finish your barracks at the same time the other player starts aging; there’s no way you can get musks into his base before he is up. Now 700w 4v 700c can have a small timing vs it, but again this one is also small unless you fb, though if you do fb it’s definitely a lot scarier with this build.
You definitely can get a good 10 goon timing vs 4v 700w 700c. You get into his base before he ages or just after he does, can trade your units off for a lot of damage, kill vills, idle, etc. You can safely send 1000w behind this, and no you can’t 2 tax off 700w and actually get 10 skirms at a time without falling behind in some other regard like goon count because you have to chop for more houses, and are being idled right after you age on top of it. There’s no counter skirm/goon timing like you seem to think there is.
Again this is coming from experience having played out the builds on both sides. You can definitely get advantages off of 4v 700w 700c, particularly on maps where his TP is more exposed, but because it’s so hard to scout if he’s also going 700w 2nd or if he’s aging with 700c until he’s already up, you often get nothing. You can get a small timing with 8-10 Huss before he has goons, but you often won’t have 10 Huss and even if you do it’s very hard to punish 5 Huss + MM in base with goons coming behind it in a few seconds.
Edit:
Let's look at the builds in more detail:
4v - 4v
700w - 700c
Okay, so these shipments arrive at the same time. One player can make some extra units and drop a 2nd military building (or a 3rd, if you're insane), and the other starts aging. Assuming both players gather them at the same time, the barracks will be placed before the 700c player starts aging, but finish after he starts or as he starts. Going 700c second you sometimes can't age immediately once it's gathered because of differences in herding, etc. assuming you've trained 5 huss, at least. So this time is a little bit variable. It takes 30 seconds to train a batch of musketeers, and about 35-40 seconds to move across the map with those muskets on a map like Hudson Bay, for example (I checked). The opposing player will likely be in Fortress before you even get into their base, and you'll only have 8-10 huss and 5 muskets to try to punish 5 huss + minutemen with the threat of dragoons popping behind it. Sounds not-so-great. Of course this is also assuming you somehow have perfect information and pushed instantly with your units instead of sitting around for a few seconds in uncertainty. Not to mention most people won't even train musketeers from here, but just go for more huss.
Is it possible to do damage? Certainly. Much damage? Not really. You might force some idle time, maybe force only 3-4 goons out of the stable instead of 5--resulting in a total mass of 8-9 dragoons. Maybe you'll kill a house if he's an absolute muppet with no sense of how to place buildings or defend them. You'll have a hard time escaping after the dragoons pop though. All of this potential damge is very unlikely to occur, however.
700c - 5 dragoons
These shipments will arrive either at the same time, or 700c will arrive ~20 seconds faster, depending upon how much xp they have, if it was a TP start, etc. So worst case scenario, when the 10 dragoons pop he'll be almost halfway aged already--perhaps a not quite this much if he waited to finish a villager before starting the age up or something. It takes you 20-30 seconds to move across the map with cavalry (again, I checked), so you'll get into his base as he's aging or just after he ages, against potentially only hussar, maybe a handful of muskets, you might have some trouble doing damage if he trained additional musketeers in transition, and if he calls minutemen, but overall the trade should be good for you if you micro well, and you can escape easily with dragoons vs pretty much anything once it's time to leave.
8 skirmishers - 1000w
Again, these shipments should arrive at pretty much the same time. At most you can have 13 skirmishers & 5 goons here, there's just no way you can possible have 18 & 5, especially since you most likely idled defending the 10 goon timing. Want to move out across the map to try to punish 1000w? Sounds very very risky, considering that it could also just be 3 cuir + a 3-5 batch from the stable, into instant GG. But again, if you somehow have perfect information you can push, but it will take you 35-40 seconds to cross the map again. The raxes will be up, possibly another shipment on the way, another batch of dragoons, and your army has no siege and very little damage against CDB. Doesn't sound like you can do much here.
Overall you will have a slight skirmisher advantage for a minute or two, but you're unlikely to be able to abuse it because of reinforcement times and defender's advantage. Really what most likely happens is that both players are roughly equal, but the player who did 700c is either ahead by ~300 wood (or more if their timing went really well and you didn't push instantly on yours), but might be down a TP depending on the map and how aware the opponent was. There are definitely imbalances between the two builds that could possibly swing it the other way in certain situations, but again not by very much. Overall 4v 700c is just a very solid option vs the standard 4v 700w 700c, unless there's a forward base.
I’ve played these situations out many times in the mirror. There’s no musk/huss timing vs 4v 700c if you go 4v 700w 700c unless you fb, and even if you fb the window is very very small. You simply finish your barracks at the same time the other player starts aging; there’s no way you can get musks into his base before he is up. Now 700w 4v 700c can have a small timing vs it, but again this one is also small unless you fb, though if you do fb it’s definitely a lot scarier with this build.
You definitely can get a good 10 goon timing vs 4v 700w 700c. You get into his base before he ages or just after he does, can trade your units off for a lot of damage, kill vills, idle, etc. You can safely send 1000w behind this, and no you can’t 2 tax off 700w and actually get 10 skirms at a time without falling behind in some other regard like goon count because you have to chop for more houses, and are being idled right after you age on top of it. There’s no counter skirm/goon timing like you seem to think there is.
Again this is coming from experience having played out the builds on both sides. You can definitely get advantages off of 4v 700w 700c, particularly on maps where his TP is more exposed, but because it’s so hard to scout if he’s also going 700w 2nd or if he’s aging with 700c until he’s already up, you often get nothing. You can get a small timing with 8-10 Huss before he has goons, but you often won’t have 10 Huss and even if you do it’s very hard to punish 5 Huss + MM in base with goons coming behind it in a few seconds.
Edit:
Let's look at the builds in more detail:
4v - 4v
700w - 700c
Okay, so these shipments arrive at the same time. One player can make some extra units and drop a 2nd military building (or a 3rd, if you're insane), and the other starts aging. Assuming both players gather them at the same time, the barracks will be placed before the 700c player starts aging, but finish after he starts or as he starts. Going 700c second you sometimes can't age immediately once it's gathered because of differences in herding, etc. assuming you've trained 5 huss, at least. So this time is a little bit variable. It takes 30 seconds to train a batch of musketeers, and about 35-40 seconds to move across the map with those muskets on a map like Hudson Bay, for example (I checked). The opposing player will likely be in Fortress before you even get into their base, and you'll only have 8-10 huss and 5 muskets to try to punish 5 huss + minutemen with the threat of dragoons popping behind it. Sounds not-so-great. Of course this is also assuming you somehow have perfect information and pushed instantly with your units instead of sitting around for a few seconds in uncertainty. Not to mention most people won't even train musketeers from here, but just go for more huss.
Is it possible to do damage? Certainly. Much damage? Not really. You might force some idle time, maybe force only 3-4 goons out of the stable instead of 5--resulting in a total mass of 8-9 dragoons. Maybe you'll kill a house if he's an absolute muppet with no sense of how to place buildings or defend them. You'll have a hard time escaping after the dragoons pop though. All of this potential damge is very unlikely to occur, however.
700c - 5 dragoons
These shipments will arrive either at the same time, or 700c will arrive ~20 seconds faster, depending upon how much xp they have, if it was a TP start, etc. So worst case scenario, when the 10 dragoons pop he'll be almost halfway aged already--perhaps a not quite this much if he waited to finish a villager before starting the age up or something. It takes you 20-30 seconds to move across the map with cavalry (again, I checked), so you'll get into his base as he's aging or just after he ages, against potentially only hussar, maybe a handful of muskets, you might have some trouble doing damage if he trained additional musketeers in transition, and if he calls minutemen, but overall the trade should be good for you if you micro well, and you can escape easily with dragoons vs pretty much anything once it's time to leave.
8 skirmishers - 1000w
Again, these shipments should arrive at pretty much the same time. At most you can have 13 skirmishers & 5 goons here, there's just no way you can possible have 18 & 5, especially since you most likely idled defending the 10 goon timing. Want to move out across the map to try to punish 1000w? Sounds very very risky, considering that it could also just be 3 cuir + a 3-5 batch from the stable, into instant GG. But again, if you somehow have perfect information you can push, but it will take you 35-40 seconds to cross the map again. The raxes will be up, possibly another shipment on the way, another batch of dragoons, and your army has no siege and very little damage against CDB. Doesn't sound like you can do much here.
Overall you will have a slight skirmisher advantage for a minute or two, but you're unlikely to be able to abuse it because of reinforcement times and defender's advantage. Really what most likely happens is that both players are roughly equal, but the player who did 700c is either ahead by ~300 wood (or more if their timing went really well and you didn't push instantly on yours), but might be down a TP depending on the map and how aware the opponent was. There are definitely imbalances between the two builds that could possibly swing it the other way in certain situations, but again not by very much. Overall 4v 700c is just a very solid option vs the standard 4v 700w 700c, unless there's a forward base.