Intervention

[Scroogie]

Quick question: If Muskets are so useless in age3 why does everybody lose their mind about how good Intervention redcoats are?

[[Armag] diarouga]

Quick question: If Muskets are so useless in age3 why does everybody lose their mind about how good Intervention redcoats are?

You only send that shipment as China, and it is because China can be weak against cav in early fortress, thus you need musks.
Else musks indeed aren't good in age 3.

[deleted_user]

Few things:

1. It's high value on paper alone. 9 musks, better than vet (intervention: 210 hp, 29 atk | veteran musk: 180 hp 27 atk)
2. China's anti cav is limited to pikis (bad unit)
3. It can be shipped and arrives even if china is popped

It became so popular because china meta for so long was naked ff, sacrificing infrastructure and eco for their age 3 spam. And they'd age with the 9 skirms and need anti cav and were popped. It's used primarily as a defensive shipment - 9 guard mosk popping on top of units under tc is pretty good, they can't be kited and they are high hp, high dps with no hard counters, so way more versatile than most other unit shipments china can send first. It's a stabilizing shipment - and china often needs (needed) to stabilize.

We see more semi ffs from china now I think - where cards like 5 meteor hammers, 10 arqs, are usually shipped first instead, or crates then upgrade cards (china has good upgrade cards too).

Musketeers work into china composition though because china has the deathball: they go heavy cav, and their cav is good and slightly ranged so they uber snare, so muskies don't get kited (which is why theyre bad) and mooskie make the opponent have to micro, which is very very difficult vs deathball. The muskies are better than vet and get shadow-tech'd.

[Lukas_L99]

You can also send intervention as japs. But not for Musks, rather for 11 clubs.

[Mitoe]

In addition to what everyone else has said, the biggest reason is that as China you normally go for a heavy cavalry/heavy infantry mass and when you're going to be snaring the enemy army like that and fighting in close quarters a lot, the additional range on skirmishers becomes less important, and musketeers are quite good. If you go mass infantry as China the redcoats become significantly less valuable.

Plus, the card doesn't cost population to send, so you can send it while you are pop capped as well: which is absolutely great as China because you often struggle to get enough population space + market ups and everything in early Fortress--especially if your opponent is being aggressive--and having a 9 guard musketeer shipment that you can send for 0 pop cost gives you a lot of flexibility when defending and sneaking in market ups.

[Interjection]

This thread is actually about me, it was just misspelled

[[Armag] diarouga]

Yea, Mitoe's point is very relevant.
Still, I think that this shipment is slightly overrated. When I played a lot with China (2 years ago or so), I used to send it first every game because that's what people usually do but I don't think that it's good. In fact, in the current meta 10 skirm is often a better choice, and I'm starting to prefer 11 changdaos because it allows you to delay the consulate and you're often short on wood as China.

[deleted_user]

I basically said what dirouga and mitoe said but I said it before them

[Squamiger]

We see more semi ffs from china now I think - where cards like 5 meteor hammers, 10 arqs, are usually shipped first instead, or crates then upgrade cards (china has good upgrade cards too).

what does a china semi-ff look like? you mean like making old han in age 2 and then aging? do you have any recs? i've seen people just fight out age2 for a while as china but I've never seen it as a semi-ff

[deleted_user]

We see more semi ffs from china now I think - where cards like 5 meteor hammers, 10 arqs, are usually shipped first instead, or crates then upgrade cards (china has good upgrade cards too).

what does a china semi-ff look like? you mean like making old han in age 2 and then aging? do you have any recs? i've seen people just fight out age2 for a while as china but I've never seen it as a semi-ff

Well it all depends on MU and map, and no, I don't have anything on-hand. Typically it's just vs aggressive play, and it needs to be tp map so, start tp + 1 village - ship northern refuguees, then:

Any order of ~3 shipments of unit shipment/700w, then 700g and age up. For instance:

8 bow, 9 pike, 7 steppe, 700g
8 bow, 700w, 9 pike, 700g
700w, 8 bow, 9 pike, 700g

The early TP gives china loads of xp, usually have back-to-back shipments in age 2. Or can prolong the semi by one card and incorporate 300export for mosk. Idk.

[Squamiger]

it seems strange to ship units if you're not making any units to support them. i thought that usually unit shipments are less efficient than res shipments and are only used when you are under heavy pressure for an instant power spike, or if you're just out of cards for the age and you dont wanna age yet.

[deleted_user]

it seems strange to ship units if you're not making any units to support them. i thought that usually unit shipments are less efficient than res shipments and are only used when you are under heavy pressure for an instant power spike, or if you're just out of cards for the age and you dont wanna age yet.

You do make units. You make a barracks when you're up, you get 500f upon age up, it's not difficult to produce. And you time your unit production to expire slightly before you ship 700g, and coordinate villagers on wood to transition to food/gold at that point (don't overchop wood - stop at 180 for a batch before transitioning).

Also, remember the point that it's versus aggressive play. Unit shipments are great for defending, and you rely on defenders advantage to take good trades, and china's unit shipments are pretty good. Either 1) opponent takes poor trades in your base or 2) allows you to age up (always good as china)

Lots of rushes rely on heavy infantry, ja? Choks have insane dps, and pikis can defend vs cav very well with defender's advantage. If opponent goes greedy contain, the 3x unit shipment or 700w + 2 unit shipments can overwhelm fast, raze the FB, and age behind it.

It's really a flexible playstyle, and allows china to incorporate market ups and age without losing all their shit. With the porcelain tower wonder, they are always competitive in age 3 vs eco/greedy civs. They don't necessarily have to rely on their fast-hitting naked ff anymore. I would say it's vulnerable to timings when china is aging if the base defense isn't great.

[Squamiger]

interesting, i'll have to try it out.

[Garja]

You can also go 700w 600w unit 700g. Then can transform old han in skirm and changdao

[Mitoe]

I basically said what dirouga and mitoe said but I said it before them

Oh, you did. I should've read your whole post instead of only half of it XD

[jesus3]

At first I thought this was a good old intervention thread because of some community member going nuts

[deleted_user0]

Yea, Mitoe's point is very relevant.
Still, I think that this shipment is slightly overrated. When I played a lot with China (2 years ago or so), I used to send it first every game because that's what people usually do but I don't think that it's good. In fact, in the current meta 10 skirm is often a better choice, and I'm starting to prefer 11 changdaos because it allows you to delay the consulate and you're often short on wood as China.

Wut...??? Youre not short on wood wafuq? Also 10%hp is just super good. I would never delay consulate. In fact i would even prefer consulate over rax and getting market ups before making units if i can get away with it.

Shipping intervention first is something you only do vs a musk huss rush or otherwise heavy cav presence. Which is basically what people used to do on re due to bad maps, so the tower ff isnt as good as it is on the plymouth maps of ep.

On maps with good hunts, or in mus with less pressure in age 2, you first send 1000c if youre smart, or otherwise 10 skir/5cav like sircallen said. 11 changdao is defo a good shipment and in certain mus id send it over 9 redcoats, purely for speed and snare purposes, otherwise manchu are also a good anticav. Redcoats are still a great card to send, i like them especially vs ger or spain, sioux and ofc china mirrors.

Intervention was also used succesfully by dyddyd in certain ff strats. And in rare cases its better for india than the 9 sepoy card cuz 1) doesnt cost pop and 2) it doesnt require veteran upgrade

[deleted_user0]

it seems strange to ship units if you're not making any units to support them. i thought that usually unit shipments are less efficient than res shipments and are only used when you are under heavy pressure for an instant power spike, or if you're just out of cards for the age and you dont wanna age yet.

You do make units. You make a barracks when you're up, you get 500f upon age up, it's not difficult to produce. And you time your unit production to expire slightly before you ship 700g, and coordinate villagers on wood to transition to food/gold at that point (don't overchop wood - stop at 180 for a batch before transitioning).

Also, remember the point that it's versus aggressive play. Unit shipments are great for defending, and you rely on defenders advantage to take good trades, and china's unit shipments are pretty good. Either 1) opponent takes poor trades in your base or 2) allows you to age up (always good as china)

Lots of rushes rely on heavy infantry, ja? Choks have insane dps, and pikis can defend vs cav very well with defender's advantage. If opponent goes greedy contain, the 3x unit shipment or 700w + 2 unit shipments can overwhelm fast, raze the FB, and age behind it.

It's really a flexible playstyle, and allows china to incorporate market ups and age without losing all their shit. With the porcelain tower wonder, they are always competitive in age 3 vs eco/greedy civs. They don't necessarily have to rely on their fast-hitting naked ff anymore. I would say it's vulnerable to timings when china is aging if the base defense isn't great.

You often dont make units imo. You ship units and gather to age. The reason this is better than making units or just straight ff is because if you get pressured you cant have vils on your wonder, slowing you down by 80 seconds. While sending unit shipments you will get slowed down 80 seconds too, but can get better infrastructure, avoid idle vils/raids or do some dmg.

9 pike 700c 700w is a typical semi
Or 9pike 8bow 700w
Or 3x units 700c

I would very rarepy drop a rax and make units. In that case od just commit to colonial.

[Garja]

I use intervention with Japan and India.

[[Armag] diarouga]

I use intervention with Japan and India.

With Japan you can do it when you go for FI oriented strategies because you don't have to upgrade the besteiros but I don't think that it's good in other situations.
With India I don't see a reason to send it. You want to send your good shipments first (2 mahours/7 urumis, sometimes you need the 2 siege elephants), then the gurkha and sepoy upgrades.

[Scroogie]

This thread is actually about me, it was just misspelled

Now i really want to make a shitpost:

"Interjection": If drinking is so bad for you, why is hungover Interjection so good at casting?

But i don't wanna get smacked with a ban-hammer or sth.

[Qosashvili93]

Yea, Mitoe's point is very relevant.
Still, I think that this shipment is slightly overrated. When I played a lot with China (2 years ago or so), I used to send it first every game because that's what people usually do but I don't think that it's good. In fact, in the current meta 10 skirm is often a better choice, and I'm starting to prefer 11 changdaos because it allows you to delay the consulate and you're often short on wood as China.

Wut...??? Youre not short on wood wafuq? Also 10%hp is just super good. I would never delay consulate. In fact i would even prefer consulate over rax and getting market ups before making units if i can get away with it.

Shipping intervention first is something you only do vs a musk huss rush or otherwise heavy cav presence. Which is basically what people used to do on re due to bad maps, so the tower ff isnt as good as it is on the plymouth maps of ep.

On maps with good hunts, or in mus with less pressure in age 2, you first send 1000c if youre smart, or otherwise 10 skir/5cav like sircallen said. 11 changdao is defo a good shipment and in certain mus id send it over 9 redcoats, purely for speed and snare purposes, otherwise manchu are also a good anticav. Redcoats are still a great card to send, i like them especially vs ger or spain, sioux and ofc china mirrors.

Intervention was also used succesfully by dyddyd in certain ff strats. And in rare cases its better for india than the 9 sepoy card cuz 1) doesnt cost pop and 2) it doesnt require veteran upgrade

Why 1000c ?

[Garja]

I use intervention with Japan and India.

With Japan you can do it when you go for FI oriented strategies because you don't have to upgrade the besteiros but I don't think that it's good in other situations.
With India I don't see a reason to send it. You want to send your good shipments first (2 mahours/7 urumis, sometimes you need the 2 siege elephants), then the gurkha and sepoy upgrades.

Japan FF for 10 yamabushi.
India rush semi FF you just spam unit cards.

[Lukas_L99]

Yea, Mitoe's point is very relevant.
Still, I think that this shipment is slightly overrated. When I played a lot with China (2 years ago or so), I used to send it first every game because that's what people usually do but I don't think that it's good. In fact, in the current meta 10 skirm is often a better choice, and I'm starting to prefer 11 changdaos because it allows you to delay the consulate and you're often short on wood as China.

Wut...??? Youre not short on wood wafuq? Also 10%hp is just super good. I would never delay consulate. In fact i would even prefer consulate over rax and getting market ups before making units if i can get away with it.

Shipping intervention first is something you only do vs a musk huss rush or otherwise heavy cav presence. Which is basically what people used to do on re due to bad maps, so the tower ff isnt as good as it is on the plymouth maps of ep.

On maps with good hunts, or in mus with less pressure in age 2, you first send 1000c if youre smart, or otherwise 10 skir/5cav like sircallen said. 11 changdao is defo a good shipment and in certain mus id send it over 9 redcoats, purely for speed and snare purposes, otherwise manchu are also a good anticav. Redcoats are still a great card to send, i like them especially vs ger or spain, sioux and ofc china mirrors.

Intervention was also used succesfully by dyddyd in certain ff strats. And in rare cases its better for india than the 9 sepoy card cuz 1) doesnt cost pop and 2) it doesnt require veteran upgrade

Why 1000c ?

To go age 4.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Yea, Mitoe's point is very relevant.
Still, I think that this shipment is slightly overrated. When I played a lot with China (2 years ago or so), I used to send it first every game because that's what people usually do but I don't think that it's good. In fact, in the current meta 10 skirm is often a better choice, and I'm starting to prefer 11 changdaos because it allows you to delay the consulate and you're often short on wood as China.

Wut...??? Youre not short on wood wafuq? Also 10%hp is just super good. I would never delay consulate. In fact i would even prefer consulate over rax and getting market ups before making units if i can get away with it.

You're always short on wood as China lol. 10% HP is indeed great when you have units, but if it is your first age 3 shipment then you probably won't have more than 20 units, in which case 200w for 10% HP isn't worth. You're going to build the consulate at some point of course but imo it's better to delay it.

Shipping intervention first is something you only do vs a musk huss rush or otherwise heavy cav presence. Which is basically what people used to do on re due to bad maps, so the tower ff isnt as good as it is on the plymouth maps of ep.

On maps with good hunts, or in mus with less pressure in age 2, you first send 1000c if youre smart, or otherwise 10 skir/5cav like sircallen said. 11 changdao is defo a good shipment and in certain mus id send it over 9 redcoats, purely for speed and snare purposes, otherwise manchu are also a good anticav. Redcoats are still a great card to send, i like them especially vs ger or spain, sioux and ofc china mirrors.

Arf, 1000c first is greedy but if you can get away with it great.

Intervention was also used succesfully by dyddyd in certain ff strats. And in rare cases its better for india than the 9 sepoy card cuz 1) doesnt cost pop and 2) it doesnt require veteran upgrade
1) If population is an issue you can just skip one vill and build a house honestly.
2) you're going to get vet sepoy anyway so it's irrelevant.