MU of the month: Dutch vs Russia

[Garja]

Why no schooners? I't not too different from Port vs Dutch MU.

[[Armag] diarouga]

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Water map will be particularly interesting for this matchup imo. Both have decent water options

Not really.
Dutch is a trash water civ (bank boom is usually better), and although Russia has a decent water boom it isn't good against Dutch because Dutch is quite good against water booms.
You can just ff and kill him with the fregate/3 ships and ruyt/falc.

Wouldn't it be a way to boom more effectively than steal trap for russia ? I agree though that it can oppen a big window to age up for dutch and you don't want that

Yes your eco will be great but dutch will age for free (while it's tough against a 5coss pressure), and you're going to lose your extra eco to his age 3 push.

I was more thinking about a normal start and then go water without schooners with juste 1 dock, using wood cartes.

Why would you do that?
If you do that too early he'll be allowed to age for free.
And if you do that after he ages you'll have less eco and your units will be worse (because you're age 2 vs age 3), so that doesn't really make sense.

The only way it works is if your opponent stays in colonial but that would be a big mistake.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Why no schooners? I't not too different from Port vs Dutch MU.

It is. The Port water boom is faster, and reaching the 3rd age like 2 min earlier allows you to get some fregates and defend the water or deal with the falcs.

[Hazza54321]

i feel like russia water can be fine vs dutch honestly, they dont have falcs and strel bh can buy alot of time for you to get kalmucks or manchu or whatever

[[Armag] diarouga]

i feel like russia water can be fine vs dutch honestly, they dont have falcs and strel bh can buy alot of time for you to get kalmucks or manchu or whatever

Dutch should go for an art fondry and falcs vs a Russian water boom. What can Russia do against that?

[Hazza54321]

i feel like russia water can be fine vs dutch honestly, they dont have falcs and strel bh can buy alot of time for you to get kalmucks or manchu or whatever

Dutch should go for an art fondry and falcs vs a Russian water boom. What can Russia do against that?

dutch push isnt exactly fast and u cant add huss really if youre doing ruy falc so strel and a couple of culvs is fine, can even build and foundary in transition to 3rd

[[Armag] diarouga]

i feel like russia water can be fine vs dutch honestly, they dont have falcs and strel bh can buy alot of time for you to get kalmucks or manchu or whatever

Dutch should go for an art fondry and falcs vs a Russian water boom. What can Russia do against that?

dutch push isnt exactly fast and u cant add huss really if youre doing ruy falc so strel and a couple of culvs is fine, can even build and foundary in transition to 3rd

Nah, this is just too slow. Also you can go double stable+art fondry and add some huss. You don't need more than 15-20 ruyts if the Russian guy doesn't make cossacks, also the Russian water semi ff is super slow so you'll get iddled forever because you get the culvs.

[Mitoe]

You can't always add huss. Sometimes you don't have enough food left in your base. Map is pretty important in this matchup, actually.

I think this matchup is close. Dutch has some decent Colonial timings that can work if Russia is too greedy, and some good semi builds to avoid Russia's timings, but it's not an easy win by any means. It really comes down to how many resources Dutch has in base. They don't need map as badly as other civs because of banks, but you can't always afford to go 4 or 5 banks against Russia, and hunts are still pretty important.

On Russia's side you want to try to force them into sending CM & 8 pike early or cutting some banks, possibly denying some herding in the process as well. They need to keep up the pressure to make a Fortress age up uncomfortable without over-committing under the Town Center. Depending on how the game goes Russia can also invest into Stagecoach or an early Fortress age up themselves (probably not recommended most of the time) and abuse Dutch's weakness to falcs in early Fortress to try to kill a bank or two.

Eventually it just comes down to whether or not Dutch can break the blockhouse at some point before they have to leave their base for hunts or--god forbid--transition to mills.

[Garja]

Why no schooners? I't not too different from Port vs Dutch MU.

It is. The Port water boom is faster, and reaching the 3rd age like 2 min earlier allows you to get some fregates and defend the water or deal with the falcs.

It isn't really faster. The only difference is that Port booms from 2 TCs, but then again Russia has faster vill training. Age up time can also be very similar. Reason why you're used to see a difference is because the Russian player does something in colo.

[deleted_user]

Also Russian units are free after boyars, cav combat, and strelet combat. As in, nearly literally free.

[Aizamk]

I think it gets difficult for Dutch once Russia hits that critical mass of 27 priests.

[Mitoe]

I think it gets difficult for Dutch once Russia hits that critical mass of 27 priests.

32 Priests, gotta comepsnate for the fact that he has 5 envoys.

[[Armag] diarouga]

You can't always add huss. Sometimes you don't have enough food left in your base. Map is pretty important in this matchup, actually.

If your opponent is going for a water boom you'll have enough food, don't worry.

I think this matchup is close.

+1

Dutch has some decent Colonial timings that can work if Russia is too greedy, and some good semi builds to avoid Russia's timings, but it's not an easy win by any means.

I don't know this MU that well, but from my experience colonial timings only work against a greedy russian, else it's hopeless, right?

It really comes down to how many resources Dutch has in base. They don't need map as badly as other civs because of banks, but you can't always afford to go 4 or 5 banks against Russia, and hunts are still pretty important.

On Russia's side you want to try to force them into sending CM & 8 pike early or cutting some banks, possibly denying some herding in the process as well. They need to keep up the pressure to make a Fortress age up uncomfortable without over-committing under the Town Center. Depending on how the game goes Russia can also invest into Stagecoach or an early Fortress age up themselves (probably not recommended most of the time) and abuse Dutch's weakness to falcs in early Fortress to try to kill a bank or two.

Eventually it just comes down to whether or not Dutch can break the blockhouse at some point before they have to leave their base for hunts or--god forbid--transition to mills.