Alternative age 1 cards for China TP start

[Thrar]

I've been looking at China openings recently and found most of the build order discussions to revolve around getting 2 villages early and sending Northern Refugees, while lately the village+TP builds have become more popular.

In a village+TP opening, sending Northern Refugees feels meh, it's passable but quite a bit weaker than most civs' first shipments. On the other hand, holding it and sending it a bit later for 5 vils seems interesting, at least if there is a meaningful alternative.

What other shipments would you consider for age 1 with a China TP start? Is there anything you experimented with? What about sending 2 early shipments since with a TP you'll have the third available when you get to colonial anyway?

Cards that come to mind (numbers from RE, not sure if EP changed any of them):

• 300w - Boring but solid, get a second TP and a head start on the market.
• 5 disciples - Good on a map with big treasures or against an incoming rush?
• Snatch the Pebble - Roundhouse kick ability for the monk. 170 area damage sounds strong on paper, could kill an entire infantry batch in one blow. Is it actually that strong? Long 120s cooldown though and useless when the monk goes down. (as Mitoe pointed out, this is an age 2 shipment)
• Trade Empire - A TP and 50w discount on additional TPs. Too late to benefit the first TP, so just weaker than 300w? Would you consider delaying the TP a little for this to kick in? That would mean aging a bit faster too since you only need to gather 50w.
• Commodities Market - Much better market rates; sell food and buy wood for better early eco?
• East Indiamen - Dock plus cheaper fishing, seems like an obvious choice for water, or is it?
• Exotic Hardwoods - Viable for a colonial build with Old Han where you have 10+ on wood?
• Furrier - The 15% hunt bonus is equal to 2 vils when you have 14-16 on hunt (depending on upgrades), or 10 on berries for low-hunt maps.

Would any of these (or others) be viable as the first shipment competitively when doing a TP opening?

[Kaiserklein]

300w and trade empire are viable to some extent I guess. I'm not much of a china player but these cards aren't horrible (unlike the other ones listed). Though I feel like you'd ship 300w only in order to end up having 2 villages + 1 TP and ship northern refugees as a second age 1 card, or for an all in rush (which is bad). And trade empire would be viable only on very few maps with a rather safe stagecoach with at least 3 tps, typically on patagonia.

East indiamen is totally viable on EP, but rather without a TP. If you go for a TP you'll have to use your third wood crate for a village, so you won't be able to train any boats until the transition to colonial. Which is even worse considering that you'll be aging late because you chopped 100w for the village and didn't get any villager shipment in. So it feels like going for it with a TP doesn't make much sense, you'll have the card at 2 minutes in game or so, but it will be useless for the next 2 minutes because you won't be able to train boats.
However, without a TP, you can directly train 2 boats from the remaining 100w when your dock is built, and you don't need to chop 100w which means you can age quite fast and start training additional boats rather early. Still probably inferior to just having the TP xp since china relies a lot on shipments, but it's a good strat on no TP water maps, like alaska.

[Mitoe]

Snatch the Pebble is an age 2 card, isn't it? Is Trade Empire really a 50w discount? I always thought it was a 30w discount for some reason. Probably because that's what it costs with the Portuguese Consulate. Pretty sure 300w is still better than Trade Empire though--it's no ATP.

This is something I've experimented with a fair bit, and it seems to me that Northern Refugees and East Indiamen are the only reasonable shipments. 300w is ok as a 2nd shipment sometimes if you want to try to take the TP line. Advanced Wonder is also a decent 2nd shipment if you get a lot of XP and are in a matchup that's really hard in Colonial.

Saving Northern Refugees sounds good in theory but really you will just always have something better to spend the shipment on.

[deleted_user0]

Snatch the Pebble is an age 2 card, isn't it? Is Trade Empire really a 50w discount? I always thought it was a 30w discount for some reason. Probably because that's what it costs with the Portuguese Consulate. Pretty sure 300w is still better than Trade Empire though--it's no ATP.

This is something I've experimented with a fair bit, and it seems to me that Northern Refugees and East Indiamen are the only reasonable shipments. 300w is ok as a 2nd shipment sometimes if you want to try to take the TP line. Advanced Wonder is also a decent 2nd shipment if you get a lot of XP and are in a matchup that's really hard in Colonial.

Saving Northern Refugees sounds good in theory but really you will just always have something better to spend the shipment on.

sumptuary laws is totally viable as an age1 card when you open village + tp. It's slightly better than 2v imo, though not as good for reaching 800f, it's better for pretty much everything else you want to do soon after aging up. It allows you to also save northern refugees for later on.

[Mitoe]

Idk Sumptuary Laws never felt good for me. It takes just under 5 minutes to get 300 resources, whereas 2 villagers would get you close to 400 or 500 resources in the same time and can be upgraded. Plus those resources come in such tiny increments that it feels like it doesn't actually help you at all. Sure I guess you get export and xp, but it's such a pitiful amount that I can't see it ever being good.

I've always wondered if you could send Year of the Goat on RE maps where you're completely hunt screwed and don't already have livestock. I never tried it though because it's just so much worse than 7 Sheep for other civs.

Wouldn't be worth it on ESOC Patch because they would take much longer to fatten.

[deleted_user0]

Idk Sumptuary Laws never felt good for me. It takes just under 5 minutes to get 300 resources, whereas 2 villagers would get you close to 400 or 500 resources in the same time and can be upgraded. Plus those resources come in such tiny increments that it feels like it doesn't actually help you at all. Sure I guess you get export and xp, but it's such a pitiful amount that I can't see it ever being good.

I've always wondered if you could send Year of the Goat on RE maps where you're completely hunt screwed and don't already have livestock. I never tried it though because it's just so much worse than 7 Sheep for other civs.

Wouldn't be worth it on ESOC Patch because they would take much longer to fatten.

you underestimating the xp + export trickle, which is key. the export trickle means you get 400 export 1 minute earlier, which is really good in many situations. From holding timings, to delivering them. On top of that, China is often idled a bit, and the trickle can't be idled. I've never felt like I had worse eco after sending sumptuary laws compared to 2 vils.

[dansil92]

Me and a friend have been working on a china build together and we've found trade empire to be a good first shipment because you will get another shipment soon enough to send a second discovery shipment- 300 wood can be a good second card. Our experiments have been with incorporating advanced wonders to speed up age times but im not convinced 100% its worth it yet. Does make for one heck of a beefy porcelain tower tho.
Other perk of the trade empire is you can get a second tp easily without cutting age time to fortress and if you dont send a second discovery shipment you will have an extra fortress shipment or can semi ff by sending steppe or rattan or whatever.

Im only a 2nd leut but idk i think trade empire is pretty strong. You get a tp (200 wood) save some wood on future tradeposts and makes your tps more beefy which shouldn't be underestimated either

[Squamiger]

i've been experimenting with sending furrier as the first shipment, then trade empire as the second shipment and delaying the TP, so I end up with 2 cheap tps + furrier + the option to send northern refugees later for more vills. it's super greedy but it has worked for my china age 2 strategies. I think it depends on what you want to accomplish-- if you are going for a straight FF this is probably too slow and greedy

[Fearingxd]

i've been experimenting with sending furrier as the first shipment, then trade empire as the second shipment and delaying the TP, so I end up with 2 cheap tps + furrier + the option to send northern refugees later for more vills. it's super greedy but it has worked for my china age 2 strategies. I think it depends on what you want to accomplish-- if you are going for a straight FF this is probably too slow and greedy

Trade empire would be a better choice for the first shipment because A) the tp rickshaw you get gives you xp (from building the tp) to go to the second shipment, and B) you probably get a pass of xp between Trade empire and the second shipment, which means the first two shipments come earlier and subsequently every other shipment after. The food gain from furrier really isn't that much compared to the xp gain, plus you'd be getting it maybe a minute and a half after anyway.

[n0el]

I’ve tried and tried to make trade empire work but it just sucks.

[tedere12]

Adv wonders

[Imperial Noob]

We did some races to FF/FI with @pecelot both as China and advanced wonders seems to slow down the standard build