No Flag tedere12
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17 Mar 2019, 03:28

leaves no outplay potential.
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Tuvalu gibson
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17 Mar 2019, 03:49

false
No Flag tedere12
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17 Mar 2019, 04:06

gibson wrote:false

:cry:
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France [Armag] diarouga
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17 Mar 2019, 08:33

Well, in otto mirror you want to ff and fight with a jan/falc/mam army. The better player wins most of the time because he gets more treasures and has a better macro, and thus hits his timing sooner. Also he has a better micro, so he wins the final fight.
It's probably the skilless mirror though.
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17 Mar 2019, 09:08

false.
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France Kaiserklein
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17 Mar 2019, 14:16

It doesn't have to be an ff war. You can jan semi for example if you scout your opponent goes ff. And I'm pretty sure jan abus also does fine just because abus can snipe falcs. Some double jan stuff as well. Lots of builds are viable in this mirror, it's more interesting than a brit mirror for example.
Also jan falc mams makes no sense, it's just inferior to jan falc manchus, on ep at least.
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Italy Garja
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17 Mar 2019, 14:28

Mirrors are generally all skillful. With otto mirror you generally have action so there is room for skill.
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France bwinner
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17 Mar 2019, 14:53

Kaiserklein wrote:It doesn't have to be an ff war. You can jan semi for example if you scout your opponent goes ff. And I'm pretty sure jan abus also does fine just because abus can snipe falcs. Some double jan stuff as well. Lots of builds are viable in this mirror, it's more interesting than a brit mirror for example.
Also jan falc mams makes no sense, it's just inferior to jan falc manchus, on ep at least.

Depends of the map, jans/abus only can work with a nice stagecoach vs ff. The reason why people don't jans rush is that the 400w ff can be adapted into a quick jan/abus push that fucks the fb. However, since scouting is quite hard in into mirros, I agree that all this theory doesn't really work and you can do a lot of builds.
For the mandchous stuff, I guess you don't ship mams if you scout manchous instead of mams in opponent's deck, but 4 mams are nice to threat the 2 falcs/tank forever the jans shoots.
Btw when there is a big stagecoach contention, it's really a lot of skill with the abus micro (abus 3 shoots each other, so there is a higher micro potential than any other unit of the game with them).
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United States of America saveyourskill
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17 Mar 2019, 15:20

In my experience in an otto mirror against other good otto players on re at least, I would always do the standard jan abus play in age 2 and it worked around 90% of the time. The other 10% of the time that it didn't was due to walls. All you got to do is idle them and take down houses and save some abus for falcs and then what does the other otto player ship next to hold? mamelukes? He would have to not make any units while aging to send mams. After the first age 3 shipment is gone which is usually 2 falcs, my mass is still large enough after killing his to just win the game after that and right click the tc.
On EP I would think that the ff is better than on re in otto mirrors due to abus nerfed but I don't think it would change that much. I'm not too sure about the jan change if it helps the ff guy more or the age 2 guy more.
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France [Armag] diarouga
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17 Mar 2019, 15:31

bwinner1 wrote:
Kaiserklein wrote:It doesn't have to be an ff war. You can jan semi for example if you scout your opponent goes ff. And I'm pretty sure jan abus also does fine just because abus can snipe falcs. Some double jan stuff as well. Lots of builds are viable in this mirror, it's more interesting than a brit mirror for example.
Also jan falc mams makes no sense, it's just inferior to jan falc manchus, on ep at least.

Depends of the map, jans/abus only can work with a nice stagecoach vs ff. The reason why people don't jans rush is that the 400w ff can be adapted into a quick jan/abus push that fucks the fb. However, since scouting is quite hard in into mirros, I agree that all this theory doesn't really work and you can do a lot of builds.

You need to scout early for this though. The best way is probably to build a rax and train jans. 5/5 jan batch+mm+5jan shipment if needed are going to hold and you will be able to age at some point.

For the mandchous stuff, I guess you don't ship mams if you scout manchous instead of mams in opponent's deck, but 4 mams are nice to threat the 2 falcs/tank forever the jans shoots.
Btw when there is a big stagecoach contention, it's really a lot of skill with the abus micro (abus 3 shoots each other, so there is a higher micro potential than any other unit of the game with them).
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China fei123456
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17 Mar 2019, 15:34

generally FF>jan abus>rush>FF
a simple 5jan 3hus rush can beat FF (at least 400w FF)
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17 Mar 2019, 15:38

fei123456 wrote:a simple 5jan 3hus rush can beat FF (at least 400w FF)

Not sure, that's close.
No Flag tedere12
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17 Mar 2019, 17:40

saveyourskill wrote:In my experience in an otto mirror against other good otto players on re at least, I would always do the standard jan abus play in age 2 and it worked around 90% of the time. The other 10% of the time that it didn't was due to walls. All you got to do is idle them and take down houses and save some abus for falcs and then what does the other otto player ship next to hold? mamelukes? He would have to not make any units while aging to send mams. After the first age 3 shipment is gone which is usually 2 falcs, my mass is still large enough after killing his to just win the game after that and right click the tc.
On EP I would think that the ff is better than on re in otto mirrors due to abus nerfed but I don't think it would change that much. I'm not too sure about the jan change if it helps the ff guy more or the age 2 guy more.

how can you deal with jan abus if you ff? Abus 1 shot falcs so if he outmasses he gonna snipe them easily. for the same reason if you make jans he is gonna be able to chase you... And mamelukes/spahi come in late. If you ff with otto you can only train a single unit, so it has to be either jan or abus. If you start abus, he can catch you with hussars (easy to get scouted in your base) ect. What is your plan on ff vs jan abus?
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17 Mar 2019, 18:09

tedere12 wrote:
saveyourskill wrote:In my experience in an otto mirror against other good otto players on re at least, I would always do the standard jan abus play in age 2 and it worked around 90% of the time. The other 10% of the time that it didn't was due to walls. All you got to do is idle them and take down houses and save some abus for falcs and then what does the other otto player ship next to hold? mamelukes? He would have to not make any units while aging to send mams. After the first age 3 shipment is gone which is usually 2 falcs, my mass is still large enough after killing his to just win the game after that and right click the tc.
On EP I would think that the ff is better than on re in otto mirrors due to abus nerfed but I don't think it would change that much. I'm not too sure about the jan change if it helps the ff guy more or the age 2 guy more.

how can you deal with jan abus if you ff? Abus 1 shot falcs so if he outmasses he gonna snipe them easily. for the same reason if you make jans he is gonna be able to chase you... And mamelukes/spahi come in late. If you ff with otto you can only train a single unit, so it has to be either jan or abus. If you start abus, he can catch you with hussars (easy to get scouted in your base) ect. What is your plan on ff vs jan abus?

TC kill abus ez, so jans/abus can't commit in base. Then falc trade fine falcs vs age 2 abus, cuz they can also one shot severals and with more range. You can defend with jans+4huss from age up, then falcs and once you've got mams, that's gg
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United States of America saveyourskill
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17 Mar 2019, 19:14

bwinner1 wrote:
tedere12 wrote:
saveyourskill wrote:In my experience in an otto mirror against other good otto players on re at least, I would always do the standard jan abus play in age 2 and it worked around 90% of the time. The other 10% of the time that it didn't was due to walls. All you got to do is idle them and take down houses and save some abus for falcs and then what does the other otto player ship next to hold? mamelukes? He would have to not make any units while aging to send mams. After the first age 3 shipment is gone which is usually 2 falcs, my mass is still large enough after killing his to just win the game after that and right click the tc.
On EP I would think that the ff is better than on re in otto mirrors due to abus nerfed but I don't think it would change that much. I'm not too sure about the jan change if it helps the ff guy more or the age 2 guy more.

how can you deal with jan abus if you ff? Abus 1 shot falcs so if he outmasses he gonna snipe them easily. for the same reason if you make jans he is gonna be able to chase you... And mamelukes/spahi come in late. If you ff with otto you can only train a single unit, so it has to be either jan or abus. If you start abus, he can catch you with hussars (easy to get scouted in your base) ect. What is your plan on ff vs jan abus?

TC kill abus ez, so jans/abus can't commit in base. Then falc trade fine falcs vs age 2 abus, cuz they can also one shot severals and with more range. You can defend with jans+4huss from age up, then falcs and once you've got mams, that's gg


As I said the only real time I have lost in an otto mirror doing age 2 vs age 3 otto was when the otto going for ff walls a good amount.

The thing is as the otto doing age 2 against an age 3 otto you don't let him make any units by idled him and sniping his jans when they pop out same goes for shipments. And I think it takes 8 abus to one hit a falc.
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France [Armag] diarouga
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17 Mar 2019, 19:19

I used to beat the jan/abus build with otto ff.
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Italy Garja
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17 Mar 2019, 19:37

on nilla it was pretty close. Actually in terms of effort/effectiveness the FF is much better. Jan abus needs perfect timing to beat the FF. With weaker jan and abus I dont think it's too much of a smart idea.
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17 Mar 2019, 19:51

Garja wrote:on nilla it was pretty close. Actually in terms of effort/effectiveness the FF is much better. Jan abus needs perfect timing to beat the FF. With weaker jan and abus I dont think it's too much of a smart idea.


Yeah that's what I was saying in my first post. I said on re it has always worked but on ep I don't know how well it goes with the abus nerf and who do you think gets affected more by the jan changes?
jan are cheaper and train faster go it can help both out for getting units out faster for rush and help the age 3 guy with cheaper jans and train time.
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Tuvalu gibson
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17 Mar 2019, 20:00

I feel like Jan rush should work vs a 400w ff. You just seige all his houses and keep him idled and send 3 hus at the right time
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France Kaiserklein
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17 Mar 2019, 20:09

Yeah but if he scouts your rax he stays colo and wins easily. With 400w it's easy to adapt into colonial
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17 Mar 2019, 23:15

gibson wrote:I feel like Jan rush should work vs a 400w ff. You just seige all his houses and keep him idled and send 3 hus at the right time

Yea, if he doesn't adapt you should win with a jan rush, but you can adapt.
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18 Mar 2019, 04:02

tedere12 wrote:
saveyourskill wrote:In my experience in an otto mirror against other good otto players on re at least, I would always do the standard jan abus play in age 2 and it worked around 90% of the time. The other 10% of the time that it didn't was due to walls. All you got to do is idle them and take down houses and save some abus for falcs and then what does the other otto player ship next to hold? mamelukes? He would have to not make any units while aging to send mams. After the first age 3 shipment is gone which is usually 2 falcs, my mass is still large enough after killing his to just win the game after that and right click the tc.
On EP I would think that the ff is better than on re in otto mirrors due to abus nerfed but I don't think it would change that much. I'm not too sure about the jan change if it helps the ff guy more or the age 2 guy more.

how can you deal with jan abus if you ff? Abus 1 shot falcs so if he outmasses he gonna snipe them easily. for the same reason if you make jans he is gonna be able to chase you... And mamelukes/spahi come in late. If you ff with otto you can only train a single unit, so it has to be either jan or abus. If you start abus, he can catch you with hussars (easy to get scouted in your base) ect. What is your plan on ff vs jan abus?


Tc fire. 4 huss. Mm. Ff is pretty fast :) also if you micro, abus shouldnt even hit falc
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United States of America Amsel_
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18 Mar 2019, 06:09

I don't know if I'd call it no skill, but it is fairly predictable.
No Flag deleted_user
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18 Mar 2019, 07:17

Actually its not. Otto mirror is one of the more strategically diverse mirrors with a large variety of viable builds/strategies. Most mirrors have only one or sometimes 2 viable options. If otto mirror seems predictable its only due to lack of imagination of most players
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Spain Snuden
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18 Mar 2019, 07:30

A well proportioned mix of Jans and Abus should do the trick.
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