No Flag helln00
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ESO: helln00

11 Apr 2019, 05:46

So after watching the mono cup I have been trying to try apply Mitoe's build where he sends 300 export in age 2 to get muskets to defend while gathering to age.

I have been trying both 2 village and Village +TP starts and there are a few things i would like to see how to remedy.

First is that its really easy to be pop capped with this without spending time collecting wood to build extra village and war academy during transition which tends to slow my activities in age 3, so any way to remedy this outside of sending 700w which tends to eat up a shipment?

The second is a TP necessary for this build order? I find it definitely necessary when against germany or other age 3 civs but is 2 village better when dealing with age 2 civs?

Third is whether to send 700c to age or to gather the 1000 coin. It saves a shipment but I'm not sure what the tradeoffs are.

Any suggestions on this?
India Shikari
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ESO: rahuru

11 Apr 2019, 06:21

I am not the best player out there but why would you build a war academy in transition. If you are gonna go with 700gold build then start tp plus a village so that you can afford to send diplomatic intrigue collect just collect 200w in transition for consulate send 300export first then 700g and age send 700w make another village market war academy and market ups. Done.
If you go for mitoe built then it should be even easier since you'll have one more shipment in this you can even skip tp and go for two villages collect wood for consulate then macro your vill for food and gold to age send export then wood and you are done. I think it should work this way.
But i am curious myself what exactly is the bo which @Mitoe did.

If you are going to start musk which one is better 700g age up or collecting for age up?
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United States of America GiBthedurrty
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11 Apr 2019, 07:50

thanks
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Kiribati SirCallen
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11 Apr 2019, 15:00

I don't know what Mitoe build you're referring to, but a build that skips 700g and gets cons musks might follow like this:

1. Early tp and 1 village and northern refugees
2. Put 0 vills on summer palace
3. Collect food and coin and 200w for consulate in this case
4. Ship 300 export, queue vills enough to produce while aging, then overpop with cons musk
5. Ship 700w and get infrastructure
and the giving famishes the craving
sweet thames, run softly, til I end my song

The shepherd's staff's tantalus around my neck

let the water
touch the tongue
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Kiribati SirCallen
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11 Apr 2019, 15:07

There are lots of good China semi ff builds, or prolonged colonial into semi you might check out.

China is one of those civs it feels like the committee is still out regarding meta builds.

For all the failings of the bow pike composition, china has pretty good bow pike mass and units (chok have insane DPS vs HI) - except that quaing don't bonus vs coyo-type units.
and the giving famishes the craving
sweet thames, run softly, til I end my song

The shepherd's staff's tantalus around my neck

let the water
touch the tongue
No Flag helln00
Crossbow
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11 Apr 2019, 15:36

so i was wrong it wasnt the mono civ cup but the new year's classic

specifically this series


@Shikari yeah i think the war academy in transition might be just habit of laying infrastructure in transition kicking in. I did think tat it was because i wanted to start queuing armies right after i age instead of w8ing for the age and intervention
India Shikari
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11 Apr 2019, 15:40

@helln00 but you can just make war academy by sending wood and still have shipment when you age up.
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Germany Lukas_L99
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11 Apr 2019, 15:48

The only case where I can see the musk semi be better than a unit shipment semi is vs a Ger dopp start. Otherwise 9 pikes/8 CKN just seem superior.

And TP+Village > 2 villages.
India Shikari
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11 Apr 2019, 16:23

When you send unit shipment to defend. You send it after gold or before gold. After gold seems better but what if you have to send it before gold(awkward age up macro). And if you send after gold do you have pop space?
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Germany Lukas_L99
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11 Apr 2019, 16:27

Shikari wrote:When you send unit shipment to defend. You send it after gold or before gold. After gold seems better but what if you have to send it before gold(awkward age up macro). And if you send after gold do you have pop space?


It depends when you expect the pressure. If you can get away with 700c you can try that, but it's risky and you can get idled a lot.
If you expect heavy pressure and might need to send 2 or even 3 unit shipments you just build a village in transition to age 2.
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Kiribati SirCallen
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11 Apr 2019, 17:51

So ye in game 1 Mitoe does send 700c after 300 export. He puts 4 vills on wonder to get redcoats in time to defend, but he still queues vills with the 400f to over pop with musks, this part is crucial.
and the giving famishes the craving
sweet thames, run softly, til I end my song

The shepherd's staff's tantalus around my neck

let the water
touch the tongue
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United States of America Squamiger
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12 Apr 2019, 05:52

Been trying to apply this build as well but I've found that if your opponent scouts it and decides to just FF himself, you are pretty hosed if you've already sent 300 export since you are now a shipment and vill seconds behind and you can't really do anything with those musks except defend
ajabu ya kondoo kucheka kioo
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Canada Mitoe
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12 Apr 2019, 06:03

I’m not even sure this build is any good to be honest
No Flag umeu
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12 Apr 2019, 06:06

Mitoe wrote:I’m not even sure this build is any good to be honest


come play me. or i must tell onlybaus all your secret builds!
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China fei123456
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12 Apr 2019, 07:38

Only 6 redcoats won't do anything. They can neither hold a rush (just 12 sepoy can destroy that), nor to harass your opponent. You'll likely to train a few colonial units to help the 6 redcoats, but that's not a semiff after that.
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Singapore Thrar
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12 Apr 2019, 08:56

Wouldn't 6 redcoats plus the two sets of minutemen along with TC fire not at least be enough to delay a rush until hitting Fortress? You can age up with Confucian Academy for the arquebus in that case, followed by the first unit shipment 40 seconds later.
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Kiribati SirCallen
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12 Apr 2019, 17:48

fei123456 wrote:Only 6 redcoats won't do anything. They can neither hold a rush (just 12 sepoy can destroy that), nor to harass your opponent. You'll likely to train a few colonial units to help the 6 redcoats, but that's not a semiff after that.

Take it in context.

Mitoe unveiled it vs Kaiser Germany, who likes to sometimes do dopp stuff age 2 vs china, and on a patch where dopps were buffed.

The alternative vs that is to invest way more - 8 bow shipment requires 9 pike after to protect it, or 700w first for units. And musks if they aren't used get shadow upped.

But ye, it's probably not good. This is just where it's best, so it might be okay.
and the giving famishes the craving
sweet thames, run softly, til I end my song

The shepherd's staff's tantalus around my neck

let the water
touch the tongue
India Shikari
Dragoon
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ESO: rahuru

13 Apr 2019, 04:36

Would you say musk start is good against sioux also. Since you never really know. Whether they'll go for ax rider or bow rider and musk are good against both.
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France Kaiserklein
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13 Apr 2019, 04:50

Imo it's just superior to shipping 9 pikes. You do have to chop the wood for the consulate, which slows down the age up a bit. But shipping 300e means you save 75e already when allying, and you get way superior units that auto upgrade once in fortress instead of shitty pikes. The real problem of this strat is that it gets easily scouted I guess.
It's interesting vs a cav semi civ, but I think it also has potential for an early fortress push against slower civs. Like aging with the skirm wonder, training a batch of units or two, intervention for 15 musks on steroids, and push.
Note that I'm talking out of my ass here since I don't play china at all
sirmusket: https://imgur.com/phZoCw6
sirmusket: compare that to ur piece of shit face/height
LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
No Flag umeu
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13 Apr 2019, 05:38

Kaiserklein wrote:Imo it's just superior to shipping 9 pikes. You do have to chop the wood for the consulate, which slows down the age up a bit. But shipping 300e means you save 75e already when allying, and you get way superior units that auto upgrade once in fortress instead of shitty pikes. The real problem of this strat is that it gets easily scouted I guess.
It's interesting vs a cav semi civ, but I think it also has potential for an early fortress push against slower civs. Like aging with the skirm wonder, training a batch of units or two, intervention for 15 musks on steroids, and push.
Note that I'm talking out of my ass here since I don't play china at all


it depends on the situation. in a defensive situation, yes, its probably better than 9 pike. but if you send the 9 pikes to do some dmg (aka siege a forward tower or rax or tp) then the 9 pikes are better. Also, doing this does slow down the time when you get your next 6 musk by about 60 to 90 seconds, so if you lose them, you're going to have less units at 12 minutes then when you would have sent 9 pike.
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France Kaiserklein
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13 Apr 2019, 14:01

Yes obviously the pikes have more siege, that's true.
Why would it delay the next 6 musks by that much though? You basically ship 375 export, and then pay 400 export, so the next batch should be delayed by only 25 export, no way that's 1+ min
sirmusket: https://imgur.com/phZoCw6
sirmusket: compare that to ur piece of shit face/height
LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
Great Britain Hazza54321
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13 Apr 2019, 15:07

Idk it feels like 10 cav can kill 9 shit pikes whilst it cant kill 6 almost vet musks
No Flag sudmakmak
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13 Apr 2019, 16:38

helln00 wrote:so i was wrong it wasnt the mono civ cup but the new year's classic

specifically this series


@Shikari yeah i think the war academy in transition might be just habit of laying infrastructure in transition kicking in. I did think tat it was because i wanted to start queuing armies right after i age instead of w8ing for the age and intervention




China worst.
Bolivia tedere12
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13 Apr 2019, 18:25

lmao welcome back
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