Against iroquois

[Kazamkikaz]

Any idea how to defend the iroque infantry rush with France in no-TP map?

[[Armag] diarouga]

On what patch?

It shouldn't really be an issue, just start musk and if you have an opportunity, go age 3, else add hussars and try to win the late colonial.

[bwinner]

Time a Musk/huss/bows timming befor running out of food : start single rax musk, 4cdb/700w(/700g or 600w for musk/huss or more bows)/8bows and go
Alternatives are Musk semi or pionners timming

[Kazamkikaz]

Time a Musk/huss/bows timming befor running out of food : start single rax musk, 4cdb/700w(/700g or 600w for musk/huss or more bows)/8bows and go
Alternatives are Musk semi or pionners timming

Well when i was with 5 musk he was siege the house with explorer and about 10 tomahawk and awenna on the way and he was just avoid my villagers from gather coin or food

[bwinner]

Time a Musk/huss/bows timming befor running out of food : start single rax musk, 4cdb/700w(/700g or 600w for musk/huss or more bows)/8bows and go
Alternatives are Musk semi or pionners timming

Well when i was with 5 musk he was siege the house with explorer and about 10 tomahawk and awenna on the way and he was just avoid my villagers from gather coin or food

you should hold just fine using cdb/TC fire to help your musks. Don't forget to leave your own explorer in your base at this point, he provides extra damages as well.

[Kazamkikaz]

Time a Musk/huss/bows timming befor running out of food : start single rax musk, 4cdb/700w(/700g or 600w for musk/huss or more bows)/8bows and go
Alternatives are Musk semi or pionners timming

Well when i was with 5 musk he was siege the house with explorer and about 10 tomahawk and awenna on the way and he was just avoid my villagers from gather coin or food

you should hold just fine using cdb/TC fire to help your musks. Don't forget to leave your own explorer in your base at this point, he provides extra damages as well.

Any records?, i found only normal iroquois rush or ff vs france not fast rush

[Shikari]

I am a noob but what i would try to do will be try to age 13cdb instead of 14 by eating livestock of you have them and prioritizing food treasure, xp treasure if you haven't received your first shipment yet. After that follow what people are saying here about timing just to add on that always focus tc fire even (units fire?) on iro explorer. Make defensive houses and buulding only market should be forward, perfect herding and buildings close to tc. Research vill hp. Also i would ship wood first rather than cdb because it'll allow me to rebuilt lost infrastructure if i lost some plus train some bows. And shouldn't it be better for france on no tp maps then iroque since on re they free tps on tp map which they wont get on no tp so less scary shipment spam.

Also pillarless walls might buy you sometime. Anyway defending iro rush is easier said than done i cant do it myself just theoretically knows what should be done.

[Hazza54321]

garrison 10vills and target hero with tc whenever the wc gets in range of tc

[Mitoe]

You don't have to ship 4 cdb or 700w as your first card every game. You could send 8 bow which should make it pretty easy to hold early on with some good herding and building placement. Great Coat/Blunderbuss are also good upgrades to be grabbing if you're expecting him to all in or while you're aging to Fortress.

[[Armag] diarouga]

8 bows first is ugly to be honest. Unless you're playing against India 10/10 or jan rush you shouldn't ever need that shipment first. It just loses you so many resources compared to 4 cdb and 4cdb/8 bows is enough to hold.

[Mitoe]

That's not necessarily true. If it prevents you from needing to garrison or fight with villagers then it's really not that bad. Plus if you get to kill an extra one of his units when it pops that's also a bonus.

[Hazza54321]

well iro shit doesnt kill cdbs fast so 4v with great coat (and possibly blunderbuss) is enough til 8 bows 2nd

[[Armag] diarouga]

That's not necessarily true. If it prevents you from needing to garrison or fight with villagers then it's really not that bad. Plus if you get to kill an extra one of his units when it pops that's also a bonus.

That's true, but even in this case, it doesn't change much. If your opponent doesn't rush you and sends like 5v vills first however, it's going to be like -500 VS and no compensations (because you're not realistically going to break his fb with 10musks and 8 bows).

[jgals]

french vil do fine fighting vs iro. main problem for iro rushing french is they resist range, and are faster than all iro units except the 4 kanya, which you can focus easily, and if he goes cav you will easily outboom him and eventually outmans because his eco can't handle that

[deleted_user]

It's true. France wins this MU on RE, but not EP since France's strongest units, cdb, cost was increased by 5f.

[Mitoe]

That's true, but even in this case, it doesn't change much. If your opponent doesn't rush you and sends like 5v vills first however, it's going to be like -500 VS and no compensations (because you're not realistically going to break his fb with 10musks and 8 bows).

Never said the plan was to break his fb. Obviously 8 bow first in that case isn't going to help any sort of early timing.

You can't decide everything off of villager seconds.

[Warno]

Does it even matter what you do at all on RE?

Isn't this just a case of the Zutazuta too much stuff theorem?

[[Armag] diarouga]

Does it even matter what you do at all on RE?

Isn't this just a case of the Zutazuta too much stuff theorem?

Yes, it does.
France is one of the few civs which can beat Iro on the RE. It's still Iro favoured, but considering we all make mistakes, you should win that MU from time to time if you play well.

[Hazza54321]

I think india 10/10 does ok too

[[Armag] diarouga]

I think india 10/10 does ok too

It does ok if the Iro rushes you, if he goes for some ff builds however you're just dead. It doesn't even work on the EP, so it's surely not going to work on the RE with +1 TP

[Mitoe]

Why would you be dead if you 10/10? You're only down 1.5 - 2 vills.

[Hazza54321]

LESS VILL SECONDS

[[Armag] diarouga]

Why would you be dead if you 10/10? You're only down 1.5 - 2 vills.

Because you're dead regardless of what you do as India?

[Warno]

Does it even matter what you do at all on RE?

Isn't this just a case of the Zutazuta too much stuff theorem?

Yes, it does.
France is one of the few civs which can beat Iro on the RE. It's still Iro favoured, but considering we all make mistakes, you should win that MU from time to time if you play well.

Do you have any recs of holding it vs somone close to you in skill?

Even when i play below my rank on RE I am just in my TC the whole time and eventually die to not having hunts.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Does it even matter what you do at all on RE?

Isn't this just a case of the Zutazuta too much stuff theorem?

Yes, it does.
France is one of the few civs which can beat Iro on the RE. It's still Iro favoured, but considering we all make mistakes, you should win that MU from time to time if you play well.

Do you have any recs of holding it vs somone close to you in skill?

Even when i play below my rank on RE I am just in my TC the whole time and eventually die to not having hunts.

No, I don't.
Against age 2 play, a musk semi should do fine. 10 musks, mm, cdb and 8 bows if needed will hold, and once you reach the 3rd age musk/falc/cuir is scary for Iro if he's stuck in colonial.

You can check the two recs from this serie :
https://pkclan.net/viewtopic.php?f=262&t=4885

Challe has the right idea. He wins because he manages to outplay garja quite hard, but with a better build order (ie take a TP and make musks not huss), that should work.