EP Old Han Reform Not Viable?

[occamslightsaber]

Hi all, I'm fairly new to this community and the ESOC Patch and I couldn't find much discussion about why the Old Han Reform card is not used as often. It seems many top China players like Mitoe don't even have the card in their decks. Even after the nerf, the Old Han Army with Reform still appears to me as a more cost and population effective alternative to the Territorial Army in the late game.

The only real issue I see with the Old Han Reform card is that enemy skirmishers outrange Chu Ko Nus and thus can kite them, but I think this can be remedied by maintaining a small force of arquebusiers or snaring them with cavalry. Can veteran players give me some input on this? Thanks.

[Garja]

Overreaction to a nerf. Card is still good but now it's more of an option rather than a must.

[gibson]

Yea it used to be that one of the win conditions for China was getting old Han. Like if you look at games where China got old Han they won probably 85% of games at least, and since it's not op like that anymore skirm sword is just easier.

[occamslightsaber]

So are there any other reasons to prefer the Territorial Army over the Old Han Army other than the range and the fact that just skirm/swords are easier to macro/micro?

I've been thinking that switching to the Old Han Army after coin mines run out and pushing while the opponent is busy building plantations would be really effective, especially since coin from rice paddies (0.34 base rate) gather slower than wood. I'd try it myself but I've never actually gotten so far into a game with the Chinese to send the Old Han Reform card in 1v1.

[Garja]

Food/gold macro is usually better. They need one less up and you economize on up cards.

[Lukas_L99]

It's not really cause its easier, it's cause it's just faster. You don't need to wait until you researched 4 unit ups, rather just 2 for sword and skirms. Also it saves a shipment.

[Mitoe]

Territorial is usually better as others have mentioned, yeah. But it’s not bad, and it does preserve your mines which can be ok in certain situations. The main problem is that CKN are as good as Arqs but have less range, and range means everything later in the game.

[deleted_user0]

So ye, the card isnt really viable unless you had to go old han units earlier in the game (playing age2, or runnung out of res in age3 but cant sink res into paddies cuz the gamr is so scrappy). Its a very niche card now, almost not worth the slot.

[occamslightsaber]

@Mitoe Now that I think about it, I guess range really is a major drawback. After the nerf, using reformed CKNs over arquebusiers is a bit like using aennas/cetan bows over forest prowlers/wakina rifles. Better DPS, but not enough to compensate for their inferior range.

Thanks again everyone for contributing!

[Squamiger]

But old Han is still mandatory on RE right? I’ve always felt like it’s pretty clunky in 1v1 bc of how many upgrades it takes + shipments + not being macroed for cavalry. But I have used it to great effect in team games and ffa.

[Mitoe]

It's overpowered on RE to the extent that once it's arrived and you have a reasonable mass you almost can't lose.

[[Armag] diarouga]

It's not really viable on the EP. It's better to go for territorial army, which is a bit sad imo.

[dansil92]

Im not a huge fan of old han even on re, they are still short ranged units and cost just a stupid amount of wood, often a good size mass of lancers, artillery, etc. Will still make short work of them. Idk its never seemed super strong to me because the cost tradeoff and awkward to add in other units like cav. Maybe I'm not doing it right?

[[Armag] diarouga]

The only weakness of Old Han is artillery but you have the crows to kill the artillery so it should be fine.
Other than that, the Old Han army counters everything but yumi mass (and it's actually close). Skirm/goon, skirm/cav, musk/huss etc get hard countered. Old Han probably even counters cuir mass.

[Hazza54321]

Old han was fucking retarded on RE , you can literally 1v3 so easily as china pikes act as mini cav

[Squamiger]

Sounds like I need to head to age4 more often in my 1st lieutenant RE China games

But maybe not, bc i feel like if I am safe enough to age to 4, upgrade ckn and pike twice, gather 1000f and send the card, and train old Han from scratch then I’ve probably already won the game in age 3. So should i put it in the deck or not ?

[dansil92]

You don't have to upgrade your pikes and ckn to make them good with old han. The 90 wood cost a pike is really prohibitive tho

I dont use old han, i just make forbidden and imperial army, occasionally some hand mortars and that seems to do good enough.

I just hate melee infantry so much i can't bring myself to use pikes. Maybe on a really low coin map its a solid strat but its really not my cup of tea. I have an old han FI deck i never use and i keep it in team game decks but i don't even have it in my tr40 deck

[occamslightsaber]

@Squamiger Well, my line of thinking on RE has been that the Old Han Reform is really useful when coin mines run out for both sides in an evenly matched late game. While your opponent is busy throwing down plantations and upgrading them for 3000+ resources, you could age with the same amount of resources and get what are basically post-imperial units. But then again, it probably doesn't matter whether the Reform card is in the deck or not since such late games are incredibly rare in 1v1.

Also, given how villagers gather coins from rice paddies at a slower rate than wood (0.34 vs 0.5 base rate) in the late game, 270 wood for the Reformed Old Han Army isn't all that cost-prohibitive compared to the Territorial Army's 255 gold. But I think the main value of the card is that the cheap, archaic units you already created for 255 food and 180 wood suddenly become god-tier units after it is sent. Like diarouga wrote, the RE Old Han Army counters almost every composition. Because they are so tanky, you can even afford to chase kiting units to the end of the map.

[deleted_user0]

The only weakness of Old Han is artillery but you have the crows to kill the artillery so it should be fine.
Other than that, the Old Han army counters everything but yumi mass (and it's actually close). Skirm/goon, skirm/cav, musk/huss etc get hard countered. Old Han probably even counters cuir mass.

Urumi mahout wins too. If you can get enough urumi