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Is their a viable ff german built with germany on no tp maps?
Usually if i want to do an ff
On tp start i go 3sw 700gold direct age
On market start i go 3sw 700w gather to age (slow but greedy and infrastructure)
I cant do this on no tp map i don't even get my 700w shipment till i am up. (Will i get one if i use skirm politician? )
Or is their some other build i can do like 700g first aging with 500f. How would that work. This seems no eco so how will you go about it. And in what situation can it be good?

3 sw 700w should get you to fortress with a shipment ready

Sargsyan wrote:3 sw 700w should get you to fortress with a shipment ready

On no tp you get your 700w shipment when you reach fortress or during transition if you use exciled price. Definately no shipment ready after that.

You can't really ff on no TP maps but if you decide to do this you should send 3SW, age with 500f and gather all the coin.

Oh i meant semi ff, sorry

[Armag] diarouga wrote:You can't really ff on no TP maps but if you decide to do this you should send 3SW, age with 500f and gather all the coin.

Is it aggressive enough?
I did it vs ai. Collecting no treasure just crack shooting guardians for xp to get gold shipment as soon as i reach colonial.
I aged with skirm politician and had one shipment ready with one production building which i made by collecting wood after i clicked to fortress. Seems so awkward with gathering wood for everything. And not even aggressive fortress timing.

Yes it's bad of course.

Generally people say vs japan on no tp map only aggressive option available is bow pike aggresion i wanted to try am aggresive fortress agenda thats it.

Shikari wrote:Is their a viable ff german built with germany on no tp maps?
Usually if i want to do an ff
On tp start i go 3sw 700gold direct age
On market start i go 3sw 700w gather to age (slow but greedy and infrastructure)
I cant do this on no tp map i don't even get my 700w shipment till i am up. (Will i get one if i use skirm politician? )
Or is their some other build i can do like 700g first aging with 500f. How would that work. This seems no eco so how will you go about it. And in what situation can it be good?

I dont know if this helps even a bit, but with france you can age at good time without tp by send 4 cdb first and no 700c or 700w

Shikari wrote:

Sargsyan wrote:3 sw 700w should get you to fortress with a shipment ready

On no tp you get your 700w shipment when you reach fortress or during transition if you use exciled price. Definately no shipment ready after that.

I dont understand what you mean?
With german and almost any other civs u can age to colonial and have a shipment ready (700w) unless you age very fast like twc civs.
Ofc with exciled prince option and sending 700c to age, you will not have a shipment ready before age3 for 700w anyway and probably if u want be agressive send 700w in age3 is not good.

Kazamkikaz wrote:

Shikari wrote:

Sargsyan wrote:3 sw 700w should get you to fortress with a shipment ready

On no tp you get your 700w shipment when you reach fortress or during transition if you use exciled price. Definately no shipment ready after that.

I dont understand what you mean?
With german and almost any other civs u can age to colonial and have a shipment ready (700w) unless you age very fast like twc civs.
Ofc with exciled prince option and sending 700c to age, you will not have a shipment ready before age3 for 700w anyway and probably if u want be agressive send 700w in age3 is not good.

Yeah i tried the build several time. It seems best way to do it would if you send 700g to age. Age with skirm politician. Or send first shipment 700w collect to age. Age with exciled prince. And push but yeah both still seems pretty bad.
What my purpose of this thread was to know is their any viable option against civ like brits japan besides tower rush on no tp. I guess i would need to do some sort of semi or its just bad. Like dopps with like 5 bows to protect them to siege shrines and maybe skipping wood to age asap. First shipment 3 sw ofcorse. But then i wont have stable up as germany which feels so awkward. So i dont know tbh.

Best ff on no tp is usually 3sw ff. Its simple, you get a market and hunting dogs in age 1, chop only 75w for placer mines in transition, have most of your vils on coin once it's researched, then get steel traps + 2 houses from 400w age up and switch more vils to food. You only ship 3 sw in colonial, go fast age, and you'll be up at 7:30 with a shipment ready. You have 75w left, get the extra 125w in transition for a military building. Ship 1000w if you can, ship units if you need (then you also need to chop/buy for houses).

Alternatively, you can go for 500f age up and 700g first, or 400w age up without getting placer mines/steel traps and 700g first. This leaves 2 choices: either fast age and skip 3 sw which is quite all in, and you still won't quite have a shipment ready in fortress; or slow age and ship either 700w or 3 sw after 700g, which is decent I guess, though again you won't really have a shipment ready in fortress and you delay 3 sw by a lot, without being up early to fort and having your fort shipment even later. You do get 6 skirms but I don't think it's worth it.

In most cases, you don't really want to go ff on no tp maps anyway.

Kaiserklein wrote:Best ff on no tp is usually 3sw ff. Its simple, you get a market and hunting dogs in age 1, chop only 75w for placer mines in transition, have most of your vils on coin once it's researched, then get steel traps + 2 houses from 400w age up and switch more vils to food. You only ship 3 sw in colonial, go fast age, and you'll be up at 7:30 with a shipment ready. You have 75w left, get the extra 125w in transition for a military building. Ship 1000w if you can, ship units if you need (then you also need to chop/buy for houses).

Alternatively, you can go for 500f age up and 700g first, or 400w age up without getting placer mines/steel traps and 700g first. This leaves 2 choices: either fast age and skip 3 sw which is quite all in, and you still won't quite have a shipment ready in fortress; or slow age and ship either 700w or 3 sw after 700g, which is decent I guess, though again you won't really have a shipment ready in fortress and you delay 3 sw by a lot, without being up early to fort and having your fort shipment even later. You do get 6 skirms but I don't think it's worth it.

In most cases, you don't really want to go ff on no tp maps anyway.

Thanks that helped a lot.

There's the 700w FF. If you want to hit an early fort timing you can age with 500f, send 700w, gather everything, fast age and save your third shipment until fortress. Better than 700c builds.
If you want eco just 3 sw. Then you can either slow age, chop a bunch of wood and send unit shipments or go extra greedy and fast age with 1000w first.

What's the point of 700w/500f ff though? I mean, I doubt you even age up faster than with 3 sw/400w, because 3 sw with steel traps gather at least 500f before you clicked up (I did quick maths and they seem to gather even more than 500f). So that means you're only 300w ahead when you click up to fortress, but 6 vils behind :S

Kaiserklein wrote:What's the point of 700w/500f ff though? I mean, I doubt you even age up faster than with 3 sw/400w, because 3 sw with steel traps gather at least 500f before you clicked up (I did quick maths and they seem to gather even more than 500f). So that means you're only 300w ahead when you click up to fortress, but 6 vils behind :S

The 700w FF is an all in, it's not an alternative to the eco build, which is much slower, but rather an alternative to (read: a better version of) the 700c build.

There's no way 3sw would gather 500f in 1 minute (even with ST), which is the max time between arrival of the shipment and age up. Sure, if you're doing an eco build you would click up much later and your sw would have gathered a lot more, but the 700w FF should always click up before 6:30.

Well assuming you hit colo at 4:30, you get your SWs at 5:10. So if you click to fortress at, say, 6:20, that's 70 seconds for the SWs to gather food. So they'll have time to gather 70*6*0.84*1.3 = 450+ food. Very close to 500. Maybe you cut steel traps and/or placer mines though, which could be why you aged earlier.

I get that it's not supposed to be an eco build, but I personally don't see the advantages of it. At least 700g build is significantly faster, even though it's very all in. 700w build sounds barely (if any) faster than 3 sw to me, but you still sacrifice tons of eco.

Kaiserklein wrote:Well assuming you hit colo at 4:30, you get your SWs at 5:10. So if you click to fortress at, say, 6:20, that's 70 seconds for the SWs to gather food. So they'll have time to gather 70*6*0.84*1.3 = 450+ food. Very close to 500. Maybe you cut steel traps and/or placer mines though, which could be why you aged earlier.

Yeah you cut ST, it's an all in build. And 70s of 3sw gathering before age up is a rather high estimate. 6:20 is pessimistic if you aged at 4:30.

I get that it's not supposed to be an eco build, but I personally don't see the advantages of it. At least 700g build is significantly faster, even though it's very all in. 700w build sounds barely (if any) faster than 3 sw to me, but you still sacrifice tons of eco.

700c is not that much faster and has a wood deficit, which you will start to feel in early fort. The speed advantage is also not as important on no TP since you're waiting for shipments anyway.

The 700w has a larger mass from 8 min and on but if you got some xp tres and need to do a lot of dmg with your first military shipment 700c might be better.

resign, blame garja for non tp map

Shikari wrote:

Kaiserklein wrote:Best ff on no tp is usually 3sw ff. Its simple, you get a market and hunting dogs in age 1, chop only 75w for placer mines in transition, have most of your vils on coin once it's researched, then get steel traps + 2 houses from 400w age up and switch more vils to food. You only ship 3 sw in colonial, go fast age, and you'll be up at 7:30 with a shipment ready. You have 75w left, get the extra 125w in transition for a military building. Ship 1000w if you can, ship units if you need (then you also need to chop/buy for houses).

Alternatively, you can go for 500f age up and 700g first, or 400w age up without getting placer mines/steel traps and 700g first. This leaves 2 choices: either fast age and skip 3 sw which is quite all in, and you still won't quite have a shipment ready in fortress; or slow age and ship either 700w or 3 sw after 700g, which is decent I guess, though again you won't really have a shipment ready in fortress and you delay 3 sw by a lot, without being up early to fort and having your fort shipment even later. You do get 6 skirms but I don't think it's worth it.

In most cases, you don't really want to go ff on no tp maps anyway.

Thanks that helped a lot.

Well the France FF with 4 cdb is quite similar, you age with 14 cdbs and hunting dogs but no placer mines unless u got enough of wood treasure, during all transition time to age2 6 to 7 cdbs go to coin and the rest keep in food queue 3 cdb if u dont want tc idle time in age2 before age or queue only 1 to age some seconds faster if that matters and all 3 queue'd cdbs and the 4 cdbs shipment go to coin and u will have 6+3+4 cdbs in coin to get 1kc and enough of food when the 3th cdb is done to age with fast option or slow 6 skirm /4 hussar option and use 400w for rax and 2 house or stable.
I did it vs british musk standard tower fb bo and it works +or- well.

Goodspeed wrote:

Kaiserklein wrote:Well assuming you hit colo at 4:30, you get your SWs at 5:10. So if you click to fortress at, say, 6:20, that's 70 seconds for the SWs to gather food. So they'll have time to gather 70*6*0.84*1.3 = 450+ food. Very close to 500. Maybe you cut steel traps and/or placer mines though, which could be why you aged earlier.

Yeah you cut ST, it's an all in build. And 70s of 3sw gathering before age up is a rather high estimate. 6:20 is pessimistic if you aged at 4:30.

I get that it's not supposed to be an eco build, but I personally don't see the advantages of it. At least 700g build is significantly faster, even though it's very all in. 700w build sounds barely (if any) faster than 3 sw to me, but you still sacrifice tons of eco.

700c is not that much faster and has a wood deficit, which you will start to feel in early fort. The speed advantage is also not as important on no TP since you're waiting for shipments anyway.

The 700w has a larger mass from 8 min and on but if you got some xp tres and need to do a lot of dmg with your first military shipment 700c might be better.

Yeah I mean I personally wouldn't ever go for 700g ff on no tp anyway.
I guess I'd need to try both the 3 sw and 700w builds and compare the timings, but I'm lazy to wait to get the same crates start, and I don't thnik anyone would watch the recs of an ff vs a bot anyway

Kaiserklein wrote:I guess I'd need to try both the 3 sw and 700w builds and compare the timings, but I'm lazy to wait to get the same crates start

you can do it in singleplayer, save the game at the 3minute mark, play one build, load the saved game, play the other build.
This way you can test both variations from the exact same start+macro+treasures in very little time. (I believe record game will be broken tho, but at least you will know the results and can share them)