Defensive agra

France Kaiserklein
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Re: Defensive agra

Post by Kaiserklein »

And I think you've always overrated TPs.
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France [Armag] diarouga
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Re: Defensive agra

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Interesting. Anyway, the conclusion is that everyone but you seems to think it is viable if you want to be defensive.
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Re: Defensive agra

Post by Kaiserklein »

No, Mitoe agrees with me
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Tuvalu gibson
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Re: Defensive agra

Post by gibson »

Well it's a 100 percent viable the question is is it optimal vs standard play.
France Kaiserklein
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Re: Defensive agra

Post by Kaiserklein »

The point is it's inferior in a vast majority of cases
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Canada Mitoe
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Re: Defensive agra

Post by Mitoe »

TP on 300w is just very limiting strategically. A competent opponent will see the TP up around 1 minute on a non-wood start and realize they have basically an extra minute to do whatever they want.

Sometimes greedy builds allow your opponent to get just as much value out of it as you do.
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France [Armag] diarouga
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Re: Defensive agra

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Mitoe wrote:TP on 300w is just very limiting strategically. A competent opponent will see the TP up around 1 minute on a non-wood start and realize they have basically an extra minute to do whatever they want.

Sometimes greedy builds allow your opponent to get just as much value out of it as you do.

Which is also true with defensive agra. If you take the age 1 TP you have to go defensive agra, but it doesn't mean that it's bad.
Actually, you could say the same about virginia company, it gives time to your opponent but it's still not bad.
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Canada Mitoe
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Re: Defensive agra

Post by Mitoe »

For sure, but the early TP is scoutable much earlier and with no risk. I'm not saying it's always bad, but it definitely is not always good.

It can pay off for the opposing player almost instantly sometimes too, as they'll recognize where at least 1 of your monks likely is and could potentially start up that normally risky 90w treasure or something similar.


VC is also very difficult to scout oftentimes, so it's not quite the same. Nor do I think VC is necessarily always greedy.
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France [Armag] diarouga
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Re: Defensive agra

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

This argument applies to all the TP civs so it's not that relevant. You could say the same about Germany going early TP. Also you don't know where the 2nd Monk is.

It's not always good but it's viable.
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Canada Mitoe
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Re: Defensive agra

Post by Mitoe »

Only the instant payoff argument applies, which was really only an aside anyway. It's how impactful the information about how fast or slow India will be that's the main argument here.
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Tuvalu gibson
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Re: Defensive agra

Post by gibson »

Didnt diarouga say he aged at 450 with like 4 vils on the wonder so that doesn't even mean you're gonna be slow,although market upgrades will be late but I think the 500 crates you get make it more than worth it. Paying 200w for the tp, a shipment, and some vil seconds in transitions seem like a good trade for the 500 crates
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Italy Garja
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Re: Defensive agra

Post by Garja »

The argument doesn't apply to all the TP civs as the actual TP civs (ger, fre, iro) still do the exact same thing with TP, but better.
However I agree that it applies to Brit VC as it is quite easy to scout, as opposed to what Mitoe says. Not only it requires TP to be actually worth it (don't try to convince me that VC > 3v because I tried both and it's only better 1% of times), but also you can clearly see the overpar amount of manors plus often delayed military buildings.
In the end the point is simply if India gets enough compensation efficiency-wise when doing TP + GFA or strat wise if it is TP + AW.
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No Flag deleted_user0
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Re: Defensive agra

Post by deleted_user0 »

Opening tp on 400w is 100% superior, imo. But on 300w it's debatable. I think i'd only do it with a 60+ wood tres in base, making it essentially 400w start anyway.

Imo AW wonder isnt that great unless you're perhaps also going IV or did a wicked style build. GFA is op though.
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France [Armag] diarouga
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Re: Defensive agra

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Garja wrote:The argument doesn't apply to all the TP civs as the actual TP civs (ger, fre, iro) still do the exact same thing with TP, but better.
However I agree that it applies to Brit VC as it is quite easy to scout, as opposed to what Mitoe says. Not only it requires TP to be actually worth it (don't try to convince me that VC > 3v because I tried both and it's only better 1% of times), but also you can clearly see the overpar amount of manors plus often delayed military buildings.
In the end the point is simply if India gets enough compensation efficiency-wise when doing TP + GFA or strat wise if it is TP + AW.

If you want to go for a manor boom, VC is definitely better. Mart and me have proved that in the past (Mart made the maths and my tests showed that you can age to fortress 25sec earlier). It's predictable and not very versatile however, which is a big deal, but it's by far the best pike semi build.
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Brazil macacoalbino
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Re: Defensive agra

Post by macacoalbino »

umeu wrote:Opening tp on 400w is 100% superior, imo. But on 300w it's debatable. I think i'd only do it with a 60+ wood tres in base, making it essentially 400w start anyway.

Imo AW wonder isnt that great unless you're perhaps also going IV or did a wicked style build. GFA is op though.

Isn't the extra F crate that may or may not appear relevant in a 300w start? Or does it just not matter because it's the same for the opponent? I'm just wondering...
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