French vs China

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European Union Scroogie
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French vs China

Post by Scroogie »

Hi guys, i played some games against Qosashvili and got stomped by his China, both on TP maps (i semi-ff with huss) and non TP maps (i play aggro with Samwise build). Do you have any tips what bo's to use, what shipments to send (Colo and Fortress) and how to micro against the China death ball?
Would really appreciate it :)
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Re: French vs China

Post by flontier »

From my experience :
Against bot 700c ff, the 2tp 4cdb/700w naked ff works pretty well. then you just spam your units shipment and wait for a good timing.
Many players keep trying semi ff but i really dont see the point to do it, china cant be raided by huss, and musq dont do anything and tbh i dont remind having seen in tournament a game where fr won china with semi.
Tho if its a wood start you can prob win with a scary colo timing into age3 when you did enough damage (a good china never die age2, damned)

On no tp map i have no clue, nothing had worked well for me neither ^^.

About the china deathball micro, you usually outrange him with skirm and/or falc so he is gonna engage and a-move you at some point, be ready for this moment, there is not big micro to do but just a perfect positionning to have. You need to take the best advantage of your 2falcs, and for that cuirs is your best ally, good tips is make 5 cuirs when you ship 3 cuirs to have enough to block him and protect your falc/goon against his ton of melee shit.
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Re: French vs China

Post by Kazamkikaz »

flontier wrote:From my experience :
Against bot 700c ff, the 2tp 4cdb/700w naked ff works pretty well. then you just spam your units shipment and wait for a good timing.
Many players keep trying semi ff but i really dont see the point to do it, china cant be raided by huss, and musq dont do anything and tbh i dont remind having seen in tournament a game where fr won china with semi.
Tho if its a wood start you can prob win with a scary colo timing into age3 when you did enough damage (a good china never die age2, damned)

On no tp map i have no clue, nothing had worked well for me neither ^^.

About the china deathball micro, you usually outrange him with skirm and/or falc so he is gonna engage and a-move you at some point, be ready for this moment, there is not big micro to do but just a perfect positionning to have. You need to take the best aalot dvantage of your 2falcs, and for that cuirs is your best ally, good tips is make 5 cuirs when you ship 3 cuirs to have enough to block him and protect your falc/goon against his ton of melee shit.

Well i heard that make musk/cuirassier combo is the best choice and i did it once and felt great, and grenadier ff worked alot with me
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Re: French vs China

Post by zoom »

Brooken China.
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Re: French vs China

Post by Riotcoke »

Yeah remove fortress age for china.
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Re: French vs China

Post by Scroogie »

I will try the FF, that definitely sounds like the most logical option. On no TP maps i will experiment with the resign button. :) Nah for real tho, a colonial timing with some pike to siege his houses is the best bet i think.
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Re: French vs China

Post by dansil92 »

Xbow pike does better vs colonial china than musk huss. I think eco style naked ff is your best bet however but if you really want to stop the death ball a double rax xbow pike should be able to prevent fortress age if done well. Xbows handle ckn pretty well tbh
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Re: French vs China

Post by Shikari »

When i win vs china it is when i am in form and can keep poking with my skirms with macro perfect and just making skirms goons. Get as good trade with falcs as you can get and when you know intervention and changdao shipment has been out and you were able to neutralize it. Start making cuirs. But it is really tough for me cause sometimes you get caught when you multitask if you wanna poke continously. But poking seems the only way tbh it keeps china count low. Also make sure their is no lag vs china.
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Re: French vs China

Post by Luciofrancosi »

I am not expert on this match up, but a few things I done that worked, although maybe not on high level!!

On tp maps I would go for a cav semi, get over 10 to 15 huss and park under the Chinese tc to iddle them and slow them down as much as possible!! If they age too slow u can even ship 3huss first and they won't even be able to gather the coin crates!!

On age 3 is about keeping picking their units and making small trades!! As I hit age 3 I usually make 5skirsms/5goons, ship 8 skirms and push ASAP!! Don't let their units grow

One thing that worked for me on my last game, but on a liutenant lvl is get double stable, make 10 goons, ship 5, push and just spam goons from there all game long, if u manage to pick their first skirms shipment u are in a great spot, since China train banner armies they struggle to get a decent skirm mass and u can run around killing vills too and being annoying!! Also u can always put goons on top of skirms too so they melee you while goons still do range damage!! Just be careful not to get caught by pikes!!

On no tp maps I would go for samwise12 build and pray!!
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Re: French vs China

Post by amiggo1999 »

!!
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Re: French vs China

Post by Squamiger »

Luciofrancosi wrote:
One thing that worked for me on my last game, but on a liutenant lvl is get double stable, make 10 goons, ship 5, push and just spam goons from there all game long, if u manage to pick their first skirms shipment u are in a great spot, since China train banner armies they struggle to get a decent skirm mass and u can run around killing vills too and being annoying!! Also u can always put goons on top of skirms too so they melee you while goons still do range damage!! Just be careful not to get caught by pikes!!


do not recommend. good luck killing 10 arqs + 3 from barracks + 9 musks + incoming 5 meteor hammers with nothing but goons, at best, you will win the fight but get a terrible trade

later it's even worse when China has territorial army combat and repelling volley cards in, arquebusiers shred goons and meteor hammer is a melee unit with range, which also means you can't kite effectively

cuirs are so much better vs china, I would honestly just go like 75% cuir 25% skirm
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Re: French vs China

Post by Kawapasaka »

Squamiger wrote:I would honestly just go like 75% cuir 25% skirm


Cuirs are so hard to mass in early fortress and so easily counterable by china's 3 anticav shipments, especially manchu. And make no goons and you're vulnerable to a cav switch which china can make happen pretty much whenever in which case most of your cuirs will just be stuck blocking china cav and getting dps'd by their deathball. It's a tough mu in fortress in my experience, I think the point about having to constantly poke to keep their mass under control is a good one. I definitely feel like I often lose due to not being proactive enough with the small skirm advantage in early age 3.
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Re: French vs China

Post by Luciofrancosi »

I think most of it is up to how much damage u can do against them before they reach fortress!! Force mm, deny buildings, keep vills from building the wonder, etc!!
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Re: French vs China

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Post by n0el »

in my opinion on the opposite side as a China player, you either need to go straight to fortress with TP's and eco or commit to age 2. semi is worthless because its hard to do any damage. When I scout a stable from the 400w I am usually very happy.
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Re: French vs China

Post by Luciofrancosi »

n0el wrote:in my opinion on the opposite side as a China player, you either need to go straight to fortress with TP's and eco or commit to age 2. semi is worthless because its hard to do any damage. When I scout a stable from the 400w I am usually very happy.



Nice stuff!! It's nice to have an opinion from the perspective of a Chinese player!!
I always had the feeling that I need to do some good damage to China before they reach age 3!!
My last games against china I did huss semi and it worked, but I could see that they didn't have a lot of skill with China!! Against good China players I mostly lost
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Re: French vs China

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Post by Lukas_L99 »

Yeah, as China a French cav semi is so easy to deal with.
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Re: French vs China

Post by jgals »

Seems like skirm cav just reks any Asian civ
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Re: French vs China

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

jgals wrote:Seems like skirm cav just reks any Asian civ

Especially on New England :chinese:
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Re: French vs China

Post by Mr_Bramboy »

The thing to remember with China is that they can't mass anticav specifically very well. They have three great anticav shipments, but after that they have to rely on the Territorial army which grants just as much infantry as anticav. Stick to skirm goon in early fortress and make the skirm cuir switch after the three shipments have been exhausted in late colonial. Positioning is key in this matchup; don't let his cav get a good surround.
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Re: French vs China

Post by jgals »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
jgals wrote:Seems like skirm cav just reks any Asian civ

Especially on New England :chinese:


or high plains, it was the lord and savior ryanmankle who first enlightened me to this

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