Ottoman FF on EP

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Ottoman FF on EP

Post by scarm »

Just watched some replays of ottoman by top players just because i am trying to get better at sup, and realized that @[Armag] diarouga was doing an otto ff with an age 1 mosque even on a coin start in this game:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIXtQp_TmIA

So my question to diarouga (and all others wanting to answer) would be: Is mosque the ideal way for an otto ff on EP? Are there other deviations from the sort of standard buildorder (screenshotted by me of a comment by diarouga in god knows which topic).
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Re: Ottoman FF on EP

Post by bwinner »

If you have a wood start, always build the mosque on ep. It's makes a lot of xp. In fact when you have a moske+a TP in age 1, it's ok to skip the 2nd TP in transition if you feel it's not gonna be good (cuz you will get pressure and the TP easily targeted for instance)
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Re: Ottoman FF on EP

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

I think it's good to do that yea. You're going to age a bit slower to colonial, but it doesn't really matter when you ff because what matters is the age 3 time anyway, and that extra exp is going to help a lot (it's like 400-500 exp at 10min).
If you want to jan/abus however, you shouldn't do it unless you have a wood start.
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Re: Ottoman FF on EP

Post by scarm »

Thanks guys. Vs which Civs/BOs is the FF the right buildorder to do (both on EP/RE)? Vs Germany i saw most Players do Colonial Stuff with Musk/Huss or some Abus; should Iroquois/France and other Semi-FF civs/strategies be played similarly? That was my personal impression from my games and from the Replays, that the FF (apart from being damn strong on RE in general) works best vs ecoheavy civs like Dutch or Port or Jap and less so vs. the aforementioned.

Also how do i play vs Sioux, especially on RE? They just fuck me up with Bowriders every time lol.

On a sidenote: Just want to say that i appreciate it a lot that even the top-players answer lots of strategy questions here in the forums, especially the likes of diarouga, kaiserklein and mitoe.

Also: Maybe i could make a rough writeup and you guys help me out with game knowledge so we can maybe put this on the Strategywall? Dont want to annoy you, just thought it would maybe help others as well if there was a solid writeup for it, even though its a rather basic strategy.
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Re: Ottoman FF on EP

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

scarm wrote:Thanks guys. Vs which Civs/BOs is the FF the right buildorder to do (both on EP/RE)? Vs Germany i saw most Players do Colonial Stuff with Musk/Huss or some Abus; should Iroquois/France and other Semi-FF civs/strategies be played similarly? That was my personal impression from my games and from the Replays, that the FF (apart from being damn strong on RE in general) works best vs ecoheavy civs like Dutch or Port or Jap and less so vs. the aforementioned.

Also how do i play vs Sioux, especially on RE? They just fuck me up with Bowriders every time lol.

On a sidenote: Just want to say that i appreciate it a lot that even the top-players answer lots of strategy questions here in the forums, especially the likes of diarouga, kaiserklein and mitoe.

You can ff in most MUs, especially on the RE (stronger jans and 5mams).

I wouldn't recommend doing it in some match-ups though.
Against China it's a bit awkward because the 7 mortars are going to snipe your falconets and then you're left with jan/cav vs skirm/musk/pike.
Likewise, against India I don't think it's good. You're going to lose your falcs to the siege elephants, and jan/mam is of course bad vs sepoy/gurkha.
It's also bad against Sioux, because well, Sioux in age 3 xD.
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Re: Ottoman FF on EP

Post by scarm »

I also have a question about timings. Depending on getting the first pass and the place of my hunts, i usually get an age up time to age 2 of 3:50 - 4:10, age 3 time of 6:30-7:00 and a falc arrival/push time of 8:15-8:45 or so. Age 2 time of 3:50 to 4 mins seems about fine to me, and for age 3 and push times 6:20 and 8:00 or so should be possible and what i should aim for right? Mainly talking about Re Maps (GP/Yukon) and RE Ottomans since i am currently grinding up to find people on ep lol.
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Re: Ottoman FF on EP

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

8:45 for the falc timing sounds very late, should be 8min or less.
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Re: Ottoman FF on EP

Post by scarm »

Yeah ik, i feel like i am fucking sth up in the Colo to Fortress Phase :hmm: how many vills should be on the crates?

(Also i kinda messed that up, often end up sending 8 jans before the falcs as opposed to the BO from above bc i feel like i cant defend the falcs otherwise; so if that wasn't clear 8:15-8:45 is my second fortress card arriving)

What would you say is the earliest time possible? 7:40?

edit: Could i upload a rec (vs ai just for the BO things)? Would really appreciate it if you could tell me what i am doing wrong :smile:
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Re: Ottoman FF on EP

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIXtQp_TmIA

In this game I pushed at like 8:10 but it was a coin start and I chopped for the mosque in age 1. I'm quite sure you can do 7:50.
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Re: Ottoman FF on EP

Post by scarm »

Did you make the Rax in your base in the game vs aiz germans because of uhlans? Or just to save time/bc a more forward rax wouldnt have much benefit (e.g. at/slightly behind the outpost, thats where i usually place it)

Also as i said i often ship 8 jans before 2 falcs because i am scared that i cant defend them with my 8-10 jans + 4 abus/huss, is that a mistake?
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Re: Ottoman FF on EP

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Yea rax in base because of uhlans ofc.
If your opponent is going age 3 10jan/4huss is more than enough to defend the falcs.
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Re: Ottoman FF on EP

Post by scarm »

Is base rax also the right play vs Russian 5 cossacks or French Cav Semi then for example?

Sorry if those questions are stupid monkaS
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Re: Ottoman FF on EP

Post by mirmydons »

Why would u choop wood for mosquee in age 1? U loosing like 20/30 sec for your FF. The strenght of otto is timing. 30 sec earlier in âge III is enough to break greedy dutch FF or even slow china FF. ( and you really need those 30 sec in few match ups). Don t delay age 3 timing for age 1 mosquee. Better to do it With 700 wood /or choop wood later.
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Re: Ottoman FF on EP

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

mirmydons wrote:Why would u choop wood for mosquee in age 1? U loosing like 20/30 sec for your FF. The strenght of otto is timing. 30 sec earlier in âge III is enough to break greedy dutch FF or even slow china FF. ( and you really need those 30 sec in few match ups). Don t delay age 3 timing for age 1 mosquee. Better to do it With 700 wood /or choop wood later.

You don't really lose time for your FF because age 2 timing doesn't matter, age 3 does and by then it's more like 10-15sec.
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Re: Ottoman FF on EP

Post by mirmydons »

Of course age 2 timing matter for age 3. Sooner you are age 2 Sooner you send 700 gold Sooner you click age 3. Chopping 100 wood = at least 20 more sec maybe 30
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Re: Ottoman FF on EP

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Post by Aizamk »

remember to make vills
oranges.
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Re: Ottoman FF on EP

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

mirmydons wrote:Of course age 2 timing matter for age 3. Sooner you are age 2 Sooner you send 700 gold Sooner you click age 3. Chopping 100 wood = at least 20 more sec maybe 30

Not really because you can't click just when the 700c come, you usually have like 1000 food. Anyway, 100w is 200VS, assuming you have 13vills when you click to fortress, it's 15 sec.
Basically, you're 15sec slower, and your mam timing will be at least 1 min faster, totally worth.
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Re: Ottoman FF on EP

Post by mirmydons »

U can right click or maybe u misplayed ur macro. Aging With tower for aggresive FF, pretty sûre u can right click. 100w 200 VS OK but i didn t know u start the game With 13 vills already :O. So it s 30 sec. Assuming the kill expérience u can do with that extra 30 sec it worth ( delaying your church by 4 min)
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Re: Ottoman FF on EP

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

mirmydons wrote:U can right click or maybe u misplayed ur macro. Aging With tower for aggresive FF, pretty sûre u can right click. 100w 200 VS OK but i didn t know u start the game With 13 vills already :O. So it s 30 sec. Assuming the kill expérience u can do with that extra 30 sec it worth ( delaying your church by 4 min)

You can click when 700c comes if you skip the TP in transition, then you're 18sec faster (because you age with like 11 vills, and what matters is the age 2 timing, not the start of the game), and you have only 1 TP.
Thus, your falcs will be in your opponent's base 18sec sooner (basically you'll kill one extra house), but your mam timing will come 1min30 later (which is a very big deal), and you don't have the stagecoach option.
You can try to do this and it can work because it's very fast, but most top players know how to hold these cheesy timings nowadays, the follow up is scarier thus.

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