Build order optimisations

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France [Armag] diarouga
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Build order optimisations

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Post by [Armag] diarouga »

I have a few questions, and I'd need to make the maths to answer these. Unfortunately, I don't have the data to do so, and it would take me a lot of time to find reliable sources. I know that a lot of guys here know these stuffs, also it would be nice to share the conclusions.

1) As Japan, is it worth to build the shrine before the consulate ?
It will be more expensive but it will gather some resources too. I think this question was answered in a previous topic, but I don't remember the conclusion.

Answer : It saves you 1 wood with deers (which is not very relevant), a bit more with other animals, so you can do it if you want. It's more about shrine placement and getting treasures.

2) As China, when aging with the porcelain tower, how many villagers should you put on the wonder?
It grants you 8villagers, so you want it as early as possible of course, but putting more villagers on it is a waste of VS.

Answer : By putting 8 villagers instead of 4, you lose about 40VS (ie 20w), which is almost nothing. On the other hand, you age 20sec sooner. Thus, you get your first age 3 shipment earlier and you can switch the summer palace to an age 3 army sooner. In the end, it's worth to do that.

3) As China, why do you always want to put the summer palace on the bow/pike and then skirm/pike army ?

Answer : bow/pike is the most efficient and effective in age 2. In age 3, the skirm/pike army is worth slightly more VS than the other age 3 ones. Furthermore, it comes much quicker.

4) As China, if you want to get a skirm/cav composition, why wouldn't you go for the skirm/cav army?
Also, are the iron flails really worse than the meteor hammers?
They are more tanky, they have a bonus against infantry and 1 area.

Answer : Iron flails are worse than meteor hammers, as well as more expensive

5) How many VS would the advanced market shipment save if you traded food (considering HD and ST) for like 1000c/400w?
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Re: Build order optimisations

Post by SoldieR »

1) building shrine first does gather some res, but I think the main idea is that the cons costs more so it gives you more time to potentially find a wood treasure which would save some chopping, also avoiding possible idle tc from being housed (if you started cons and are waiting for port cons to finish).

3) bow pike is most efficient and effective in age 2, maybe besides the anti cav one vs ger, and age 3 comp is because it is slightly more VS than the other age 3 ones, but mostly because it comes much quicker than the other age 3 options. The other options are just about worth the same amount of vils (like 4.2 vs 4.4) but just take longer to pop because the cost in res is much higher.
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Re: Build order optimisations

Post by Lukas_L99 »

2) You can put 8 on it if you wanna be very quick to 3, e.g. for a fast FI

3) You don't always want it, but its the most versatile. If you're sure your opponent goes for a cav semi you can put it on the anti cav army, if you know a russian guy likes to go very strel heavy you can leave it on the standard army.

4) Even with the bonus vs inf they do less damage to inf than meteor hammers, the 1 splash doesnt rlly seem to do much. Also the range of meteor hammers is great as there are less pathing issues when they're attacking and you have a bunch of cav.
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Re: Build order optimisations

Post by deleted_user »

2) Mitoe told me the maths checks out that 8 vills on porcelain tower to age up actually nets more resources when set on wood.
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Re: Build order optimisations

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

deleted_user wrote:2) Mitoe told me the maths checks out that 8 vills on porcelain tower to age up actually nets more resources when set on wood.

Can I see the maths?
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Re: Build order optimisations

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Lukas_L99 wrote:2) You can put 8 on it if you wanna be very quick to 3, e.g. for a fast FI


If you want to be fast, you of course want to do it. My question is how many VS do you lose by doing it? If you get extra VS then you want to do that in every situation.

4) Even with the bonus vs inf they do less damage to inf than meteor hammers, the 1 splash doesnt rlly seem to do much. Also the range of meteor hammers is great as there are less pathing issues when they're attacking and you have a bunch of cav.

Still, they're not that bad, right? Like against jan/abus or skirm/goon with no cav, you still want to train the skirm/cav army?
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Re: Build order optimisations

Post by Garja »

1) iirc mitoe does that and it's about equivalent as shrine after consulate.
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Re: Build order optimisations

Post by Lukas_L99 »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
4) Even with the bonus vs inf they do less damage to inf than meteor hammers, the 1 splash doesnt rlly seem to do much. Also the range of meteor hammers is great as there are less pathing issues when they're attacking and you have a bunch of cav.

Still, they're not that bad, right? Like against jan/abus or skirm/goon with no cav, you still want to train the skirm/cav army?


I think their damage is just really low, they're decent when soaking damage while MH deal the damage in the back.
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Re: Build order optimisations

Post by princeofcarthage »

Assuming shrine is built on 4 animals (atleast deers), shrine will gather 19 wood in time required to build a consulate by one villager, which would save 18 wood. The difference would be bigger if you have better animals like cows bison llama sheep or elephant on shrine.
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Re: Build order optimisations

Post by princeofcarthage »

1 area is kinda useless, unless units are really crammed like into chokes, Unlike lancer, Iron flails are only good against skirmisher type units and not musk cuz they have have neg multi against heavy inf. Meteor hammers have 282 ranged hp while iron flails have 380 ranged hp, but iron flails die faster to melee attack, hence good against goon skirm composition but not against skirm musk/pike +/goon. Also 3 unit compositions like skirm pike cav are just better than 2 unit compositions and if china can get it easily then why not. Cost wise Iron flails are 25 f expensive.
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Re: Build order optimisations

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Post by rsy »

I like how our newest big champ is presenting himself, with a thirst for knowledge and passion for improvement. I really like it bigrouga
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Re: Build order optimisations

Post by ListlessSalmon »

1- I think shrine is *basically* better VS-wise but its slightly obnoxious to say.
Assuming you build consulate with one vill, and shrine with one explorer, getting consulate + port alliance takes 45s longer than getting a shrine, so its 18 wood cost, for (assuming deer) 0.38*45=17.1 of wood production. So that would be a net loss. But a consulate costs more than a shrine, so getting the crates gathered for that takes time. How you determine that should resolve the question of which one wins. The turning point where Shrine first starts to gain villager seconds is for the consulate to be started 2.37 seconds later than the shrine would. So the shrine should always win assuming starting stuff as soon as you have the resources unless you are gathering crates in some extremely idiosyncratic way (i.e. some method with 5 vills on wood at 100w gathered so you jump 100->200 and the shrine gets no head start at all).
Feel like the gain of more exploring earlier is worth more though.

2- I thought just in pure VS ignoring all else that it was a slight VS loss. I don't even clearly remember the fortress wonder build time stuff but heres a shot from memory.

I think fortress wonders are 2:10 with -10 for each of the first 4, and -5 for the remaining 4 possible.
So with 4 vills it would take 1:30 (360 VS input, no tower gathering by 1:30)
And with 8 vills it would take 1:10 (560 vs input, tower gives you 160 VS back in the 20 seconds earlier up assuming on wood and no upgrades)
So if that's right overall it would be 40 VS better to do 4 rather than 8. Of course its slightly more complicated than that because the benefit of the tower is backloaded and you'd rather have resources earlier than later.

Probably close enough that you'd basically always want 8 anyway for the other benefits but I don't know for sure.

edit: I misremembered how fortress wonders work- think base is actually 2:25 and don't recall how much faster adding vills makes it.
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Re: Build order optimisations

Post by Mitoe »

The math is actually pretty simple for the Porcelain Tower question. It’s worth 8 vills on wood without upgrades (and you normally don’t have upgrades as China yet, or are only just starting), so putting 8 vills on it means you will break even on villager seconds overall once it’s been up for a bit. But because the first 4 villagers on a wonder are more effective than the last 4 (taking twice as much off of the build time), you will actually earn more resources with 4 villagers on it than with any other number.

So basically if you want to greed you should 4v, but anything more than 4v is also totally fine.
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Re: Build order optimisations

Post by bwinner »

Mitoe wrote:The math is actually pretty simple for the Porcelain Tower question. It’s worth 8 vills on wood without upgrades (and you normally don’t have upgrades as China yet, or are only just starting), so putting 8 vills on it means you will break even on villager seconds overall once it’s been up for a bit. But because the first 4 villagers on a wonder are more effective than the last 4 (taking twice as much off of the build time), you will actually earn more resources with 4 villagers on it than with any other number.

So basically if you want to greed you should 4v, but anything more than 4v is also totally fine.

I made the calculation and any villager you put in loses vs, even the first 4... (although I would still put them on just to do age 3 things faster ofc)
Although I wasn't sure what the building time is with zero villager so I won't share the results
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Re: Build order optimisations

Post by Mitoe »

You gain resources. No time to answer atm though, will go into more detail later.
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Re: Build order optimisations

Post by ListlessSalmon »

Yeah I don't know the base build time (or actually precisely how the adding vills works- I thought it was -10s then -5s for 5-8 but that seems to be possibly incorrect for fortress wonders) but I think you should lose VS for 0 to 4 as well, obviously Mitoe might demonstrate this to be wrong later.
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Re: Build order optimisations

Post by deleted_user0 »

Costs of building tower of gayness.

0 = 0 res
4 = 4*80*0.5 = 160w
8= 8*60*0.5 = 240w.

Bonus wood revenue:
0 = 0 res
4 = 40 * 4 = 160w
8= 60 * 4 = 240w

Conclusion: Resource-wise it doesn't matter how many vills you use. However, aging up faster is always better. On the other hand, if you want to allocate no vills to wood, aging up with 4 might be still viable. Market not included.
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Re: Build order optimisations

Post by ListlessSalmon »

somppukunkku wrote:Costs of building tower of gayness.

0 = 0 res
4 = 4*80*0.5 = 160w
8= 8*60*0.5 = 240w.

Bonus wood revenue:
0 = 0 res
4 = 40 * 4 = 160w
8= 60 * 4 = 240w

Conclusion: Resource-wise it doesn't matter how many vills you use. However, aging up faster is always better. On the other hand, if you want to allocate no vills to wood, aging up with 4 might be still viable. Market not included.


Fortress wonders take longer than colonial ones though, right?
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Re: Build order optimisations

Post by deleted_user0 »

are they?, I thought they are the same. 120s each w/ no vills buiding.
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Re: Build order optimisations

Post by deleted_user0 »

somppukunkku wrote:are they?, I thought they are the same. 120s each w/ no vills buiding.


no aging to fortress takes longer, just like aging to fortress takes longer for euro and twc civs. to II, IV, and V is 120 sec. I think to III is 145, but not entirely sure.
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Re: Build order optimisations

Post by Lukas_L99 »

somppukunkku wrote:are they?, I thought they are the same. 120s each w/ no vills buiding.


Yeah, pretty sure they're all the same

Edit: Looks like I was wrong
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Re: Build order optimisations

Post by ListlessSalmon »

Yeah they're different, I don't know what the fortress base actually is though- I misremembered it as 2:10 in a prior post. I think 2:25 sounds right to me now? (Obviously could just open aoe3 and test I guess).
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Re: Build order optimisations

Post by deleted_user0 »

Lukas_L99 wrote:
3) You don't always want it, but its the most versatile. If you're sure your opponent goes for a cav semi you can put it on the anti cav army, if you know a russian guy likes to go very strel heavy you can leave it on the standard army.


i disagree, you always want territorial on your wonder in age3, with the exception of when you're facing severe pressure from an age2 civ, like for example vs russia, in that case, just leave it on bow pike as it comes faster and you need any units to hold.

the reason you want territorial is because it just comes way faster than the ones with cav, it's almost 2x as fast.
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Re: Build order optimisations

Post by Mitoe »

It’s 150 seconds with no vills on wonder.

Anyway I can’t remember exactly what the math was (was a long time ago), but the first 4 vills take 12.5 seconds each off the wonder or something like that.

Thinking about it I actually can’t see exactly how I determined that you gain resources from the first 4 vills, but I think I tested it in game as well to make sure it was right. Not 100% sure.


Edit: I think I forgot the results. It’s 4v where it breaks even on resources you get back I think. Need to do more math later. Kinda busy atm.
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Re: Build order optimisations

Post by Lukas_L99 »

umeu wrote:
Lukas_L99 wrote:
3) You don't always want it, but its the most versatile. If you're sure your opponent goes for a cav semi you can put it on the anti cav army, if you know a russian guy likes to go very strel heavy you can leave it on the standard army.


i disagree, you always want territorial on your wonder in age3, with the exception of when you're facing severe pressure from an age2 civ, like for example vs russia, in that case, just leave it on bow pike as it comes faster and you need any units to hold.

the reason you want territorial is because it just comes way faster than the ones with cav, it's almost 2x as fast.


I think you misunderstood me, I was only talking about age 2.

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