Number Crunching the Chinese 2 Wonders

[I_HaRRiiSoN_I]

hi guys, shorter post here as i'm only going to post the results of what I have found and not necessarily explain/derive them. This looks into how long wonders take to build with different vills aswell as my answer for most efficient way to build porcelain tower to age 3.

The build time for the age 3 wonder is longer/slower than the age 2/4 wonder build times regardless of which wonder you build.

Age 2 wonder times

No. Vills // Build time (seconds)
0 120
1 110
2 100
3 90
4 80
5 75
6 70
7 65
8 60

Age 3 wonder times

Number of Vills building // Age 3 Wonder build time // Wood gathered from 8 vills either building PT or chopping
0 145 580
1 132.5 563.75
2 120 560
3 107.5 568.75
4 95 590
5 90 575
6 85 565
7 80 560
8 75 560

Note the above values were taken from actual game play and rounded to the nearest round number, the wood gathered is calculated.

I calculated the equivalent wood gathered by considering 8 vills either building the porcelain tower or chopping wood {on a sliding scale} during construction as well as the subsequent resources gathered by the 8 vills and the porcelain tower post completion until the total time elapsed = 145 seconds.

I suspect that with the age 3 age up time post 4 vills it follows the same trend of age 2. Each vill reduces the build time by 1/12 and then by 1/24 for each vill used past 4 vills (No. vills >= 5) {taken from a prior comment i saw}. This would be a difference of age up times post 4 vills of 6.25 seconds instead of 5 but this level of detail in a real game is negligible.

the biggest issue i noticed when testing was the time the vills were idle bumping into each other as they awkwardly walked around the foundation until everybody was in position before beginning construction. Even if 1 vill started building the wonder, some vills would like to walk for another 5 seconds to the side/behind the wonder.

The above point as well as the noticeable decrease in build time (loss in villager seconds /loss of potential wood gathered in output) for when 5 or more vills are used mean that I recommend build the PT with 4 vills if you are not under any pressure.

Summer Palace free Unit training

build Time // food cost // wood/coin cost // Villager seconds // Equivalent Villagers
153 255 180 w 663.5 4.34
151 255 170 c 586.9 3.89
158 345 120 w 650.7 4.12
193 285 255 c 764.2 3.96
294 480 350 c 1154. 3.93
255 480 255 c 996.4 3.91

Old han is most efficient to train however all the coin based armies gather at near villager equivalent of 3.9-4.0 villagers. So pick the army which fits the situation but remember a batch of units is worthless until the unit has actually trained (looking at you cav batch).

Also haven't thought of a good way to look into this but training additional units when the porcelain tower is set to coin with a villager split more towards food gathering aswell as your villagers having the tier 2 hunt upgrade as well as tier 1 all resources upgrade seems to be really really efficient.

Appendix - Age 3 wonder times detail
(1) (2) (3)
580 0 0
507.5 50 6.25
435 100 25
362.5 150 56.25
290 200 100
217.5 220 137.5
145 240 180
72.5 260 227.5
0 280 280

(1) amount of wood gathered by vills in 145 seconds
(2) amount of wood gathered by PT from point of completion to until 145 seconds has elapsed
(2) amount of wood gathered by Vills from point of PT completion to until 145 seconds has elapsed

[I_HaRRiiSoN_I]

@[Armag] diarouga I think this answers 2 of your questions, although already answered by other I just wanted to check the numbers as people were kinda unsure

[[Armag] diarouga]

Yes it does thanks.
The conclusion is that you should always go old han or territorial, and that putting 0 or 8 vills on the PT doesn't matter in term of VS, right?

[I_HaRRiiSoN_I]

Well i would say any unit batch from summer palace is fine due to no real option being far ahead of the others maybe except for old han but yes the regular production of Old han and Territorial is a larger factor for real game situations.

4 vills is the most efficient for building the PT tower due build time not decreasing as fast after 4 vills. but a mathematical difference of 30 wood over a period 2 and a half minutes is nothing to get excited about aswell. If you have a shipment ready to send, go with 8 vills. If you can find out some micro magic so that vills can build the wonder from just one side and avoid having the vills bug out, bump around and be idle while trying to quickly shove 8 vills onto the foundation then go 8 vills.

And if you want a nice mix inbetween 4 and 8, go with 6 vills. If your not being pressured and have no card to immediately send, go with 4 vills.

**I would not recommend building with less than 4 vills as I dont see any benefit to it, definitely go with 4-8 vills instead of 0-3 vills**

[jgals]

that's some good work nerds

[yemshi]

Maybe not super important for China but delaying your ageup by putting few vills on it can be super good if you dont have a shipment ready/ have res for unit ups etc...
An ageup will always be a "oh-lets-push-now-notification" for your opponent (that might have waited 20 secs more before pushing).

[ListlessSalmon]

Using that 12.5 for first 4 then 5 for next 4 formula. (Which I think is correct).

Vills on tower/VS vs 0 (minus is bad, plus is good)

0: +0
1: -32.5
2: -40
3: -22.5
4:+20
5: -10
6: -30
7: -40
8: -40

So Mitoe's initial assertion of 4 vills gaining resources and then losing resources beyond that was correct. And 8 vills is 60VS (30w) lost vs 4 vills, for 20 seconds earlier ageup.

(Basically just a restatement of OP).

[I_HaRRiiSoN_I]

Yeah i knew this has been looked at before but just wanted to have a look at this myself. I must stress that the villager seconds lost or gained is marginal due to the PT generating 8 vills of wood on age up (after you select wood). Consideration must be given to villagers being tasked to build it due to bumping around but it is always good to have a refresher for something useful for every china game.

[Mitoe]

Using that 12.5 for first 4 then 5 for next 4 formula. (Which I think is correct).

Vills on tower/VS vs 0 (minus is bad, plus is good)

0: +0
1: -32.5
2: -40
3: -22.5
4:+20
5: -10
6: -30
7: -40
8: -40

So Mitoe's initial assertion of 4 vills gaining resources and then losing resources beyond that was correct. And 8 vills is 60VS (30w) lost vs 4 vills, for 20 seconds earlier ageup.

(Basically just a restatement of OP).

The last 4 take off 6.2 ish seconds, not 5, I think

The first 4 take off 8.33% of the build time, and the last 4 take off 4.15%

[ListlessSalmon]

The last 4 take off 6.2 ish seconds, not 5, I think

The first 4 take off 8.33% of the build time, and the last 4 take off 4.15%

I'd believe that if the base (0 vills) was 150 (then it would be the same as formula colo but on a higher base) but the base is definitely less than that (and probably 145). Also just from tests/looking at vods it does seem like 4 vills gets to fortress in 1:35 and 8 gets there in 1:15. Obviously I could be mistaken somewhere here though.

[Riotcoke]

Something i've wondered about the tower for a while is if it's worth keeping it on the mixed setting to generate enough export for a batch of 6 redcoats, as if you ff as china you normally end up with around 300 export, so just shy of the 400. Does anyone know how inefficient that would be in terms of wood cost?

[Mitoe]

I remember testing it and it’s definitely closer to 6 seconds they take off, but you have to place them on the wonder pretty quickly. If you delay maybe it really is closer to 5 each.

Is the build time really 145? I thought the build points in the proto file were 150, but I could just be misremembering. In that case though the first 4 only take off 12 seconds instead of 12.5 (if that really matters much).

[yemshi]

Something i've wondered about the tower for a while is if it's worth keeping it on the mixed setting to generate enough export for a batch of 6 redcoats, as if you ff as china you normally end up with around 300 export, so just shy of the 400. Does anyone know how inefficient that would be in terms of wood cost?

You send the trickle in age I instead of 2v.

[Riotcoke]

Something i've wondered about the tower for a while is if it's worth keeping it on the mixed setting to generate enough export for a batch of 6 redcoats, as if you ff as china you normally end up with around 300 export, so just shy of the 400. Does anyone know how inefficient that would be in terms of wood cost?

You send the trickle in age I instead of 2v.

Why do you mean trickle and 2v china doesn't have a 2v card :p

[Kawapasaka]

Something i've wondered about the tower for a while is if it's worth keeping it on the mixed setting to generate enough export for a batch of 6 redcoats, as if you ff as china you normally end up with around 300 export, so just shy of the 400. Does anyone know how inefficient that would be in terms of wood cost?

You send the trickle in age I instead of 2v.

Why do you mean trickle and 2v china doesn't have a 2v card :p

Sumptuary Laws and Northern Refugees

[ListlessSalmon]

Something i've wondered about the tower for a while is if it's worth keeping it on the mixed setting to generate enough export for a batch of 6 redcoats, as if you ff as china you normally end up with around 300 export, so just shy of the 400. Does anyone know how inefficient that would be in terms of wood cost?

I think it's not a great idea. Food mode is 4.5 f/s wood and coin are 4 per second. The mixed is 0.45 of food/wood/coin and 0.25 export and exp.

An idea I had at some point along similar lines was temple of heaven to age 3 to get the 6 vills (and thus get their export as well). It doesn't sound awful to me, especially as the heal power is pretty reasonable (1k of total hp healed per cycle) and with some market techs its not that much worse than tower assuming the vills go to wood- and tower probably wouldn't stay on wood forever. The extra 6 population on hitting fortress annoyed me though.

[Riotcoke]

Show hidden quotes

Something i've wondered about the tower for a while is if it's worth keeping it on the mixed setting to generate enough export for a batch of 6 redcoats, as if you ff as china you normally end up with around 300 export, so just shy of the 400. Does anyone know how inefficient that would be in terms of wood cost?

You send the trickle in age I instead of 2v.

Why do you mean trickle and 2v china doesn't have a 2v card :p

Sumptuary Laws and Northern Refugees

Northern Refugees is a 3v shipment though, otherwise it's worth skipping imo.

[I_HaRRiiSoN_I]

Something i've wondered about the tower for a while is if it's worth keeping it on the mixed setting to generate enough export for a batch of 6 redcoats, as if you ff as china you normally end up with around 300 export, so just shy of the 400. Does anyone know how inefficient that would be in terms of wood cost?

I didnt calc it as i thought it was pretty poor. But if i was to put a number of equivalent villagers/VS on the mixed setting then you would need to 'price' how much a piss poor exp trickle it is to get the 4th/5th shipment, figure out how export is generated or calculated in the first place as well as the remaining resources equally split?? The food is inefficient, 5.4 vills of food vs 8 vills of wood. A slow wood trickle is useless until you have 100 wood or any meaningful number.

I would suggest (if under pressure from PT), putting PT on coin, buying 200 wood for another village and sending intervention instead of the mixed eco to push out those extra 6 musk that slightly bit earlier

[ListlessSalmon]

Northern Refugees is a 3v shipment though, otherwise it's worth skipping imo.

Doing TP rather than second village and sending it for 2v is very common.

What are you doing instead of it in that scenario? Skipping age1 cards entirely?

[Riotcoke]

Something i've wondered about the tower for a while is if it's worth keeping it on the mixed setting to generate enough export for a batch of 6 redcoats, as if you ff as china you normally end up with around 300 export, so just shy of the 400. Does anyone know how inefficient that would be in terms of wood cost?

I didnt calc it as i thought it was pretty poor. But if i was to put a number of equivalent villagers/VS on the mixed setting then you would need to 'price' how much a piss poor exp trickle it is to get the 4th/5th shipment, figure out how export is generated or calculated in the first place as well as the remaining resources equally split?? The food is inefficient, 5.4 vills of food vs 8 vills of wood. A slow wood trickle is useless until you have 100 wood or any meaningful number.

I would suggest (if under pressure from PT), putting PT on coin, buying 200 wood for another village and sending intervention instead of the mixed eco to push out those extra 6 musk that slightly bit earlier

Intervention doesn't need pop space, the reason i'd go for the export would be to a 15 musk pop, which can pretty much defend most timings for your naked fortress with decent mm pops.

[Riotcoke]

Northern Refugees is a 3v shipment though, otherwise it's worth skipping imo.

Doing TP rather than second village and sending it for 2v is very common.

What are you doing instead of it in that scenario? Skipping age1 cards entirely?

300w tp i think is better honestly. Especially if you're going tower as you can end up skipping 700 wood.

[yemshi]

300w is really not good. You really need some kind of eco shipment in age I otherwise you simply cannot age to III as you have to few res. You'll sit at 800f 1kc and no way to age up without skipping even more vills. And then you might just not age with the tower anymore...

[Riotcoke]

300w is really not good. You really need some kind of eco shipment in age I otherwise you simply cannot age to III as you have to few res. You'll sit at 800f 1kc and no way to age up without skipping even more vills. And then you might just not age with the tower anymore...

Oh i might have made a mistake, is it 300w as your 2nd shipment and skip 700? As you get 2 age 1 shipments with one ready in age 2 if i recall correctly?

[yemshi]

You do. But why would you double village into 300w TP (where you are still left with 100w) instead of just getting village+TP plus another shipment to defend/save?
You are left with worse eco than double village plus extra shipment in III and less flexibility than village+TP.

300w may only be good in aiz's triple village + TP age I agenda.