The card "stonemasons" worth it?

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Turkey Mameluke
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The card "stonemasons" worth it?

Post by Mameluke »

Hey, is the card "stonemasons" worth it in any case? I am mostly thinking about brits who build lots of buildings, would save lots of villager seconds.

tyia (thank you in advance)
If you see any mistakes in my grammar/vocabulary or whatever, please correct me. I really appreciate it :!: :flowers:
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Re: The card "stonemasons" worth it?

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Post by [Armag] diarouga »

No.
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Re: The card "stonemasons" worth it?

Post by Mr_Bramboy »

You can do the math yourself if you're interested. Stonemasons is an Age 2 card which means it should be worth roughly 700 resources. Stonemasons decreases the number of build points by 65%. Let's say we're sending this card instead of 700w for simplicity sake. 700w is worth 1400 VS (source) A manor takes 20 seconds to build. I can't find its build points, but again for simplicity sake let's say it now takes 7 seconds to build with Stonemasons sent. This means you're saving 13 VS - or 7.5 wood - per manor house. Meaning with around 16 manors after sending Stonemasons you're saving around 120w in villager seconds. This value increases a little bit if you factor in Gangsaw but it also decreases a little bit if you factor in things like walking time. In general, Stonemasons is a terrible card and you're better off sending the standard shipments.
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Re: The card "stonemasons" worth it?

Post by Mitoe »

As others have stated, Stonemasons is terrible in Supremacy. It’s usefulness is only apparent in niche game modes like Deathmatch and custom maps.
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Re: The card "stonemasons" worth it?

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Post by Aizamk »

Use it in teamgames to get your artillery foundry in opponent's base up earlier
oranges.
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Re: The card "stonemasons" worth it?

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Post by deleted_user0 »

Mr_Bramboy wrote:You can do the math yourself if you're interested. Stonemasons is an Age 2 card which means it should be worth roughly 700 resources. Stonemasons decreases the number of build points by 65%. Let's say we're sending this card instead of 700w for simplicity sake. 700w is worth 1400 VS (source) A manor takes 20 seconds to build. I can't find its build points, but again for simplicity sake let's say it now takes 7 seconds to build with Stonemasons sent. This means you're saving 13 VS - or 7.5 wood - per manor house. Meaning with around 16 manors after sending Stonemasons you're saving around 120w in villager seconds. This value increases a little bit if you factor in Gangsaw but it also decreases a little bit if you factor in things like walking time. In general, Stonemasons is a terrible card and you're better off sending the standard shipments.

Your math is wrong. You also get your free villagers earlier which doubles your saved villager seconds. But the card is still super shit, obviously.

Funnily, team faster manors might be worth it in 3v3 with double or triple brit. You save 18*2 = 36 villager seconds per manor. 20*36 = 720 villager seconds = 310w. Now if you assume double brit it becomes 620w and then also your third team-mate benefits from this. Which comes quite even with VC. Lul. It's a discovery card.
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Re: The card "stonemasons" worth it?

Post by Mr_Bramboy »

somppukunkku wrote:
Mr_Bramboy wrote:You can do the math yourself if you're interested. Stonemasons is an Age 2 card which means it should be worth roughly 700 resources. Stonemasons decreases the number of build points by 65%. Let's say we're sending this card instead of 700w for simplicity sake. 700w is worth 1400 VS (source) A manor takes 20 seconds to build. I can't find its build points, but again for simplicity sake let's say it now takes 7 seconds to build with Stonemasons sent. This means you're saving 13 VS - or 7.5 wood - per manor house. Meaning with around 16 manors after sending Stonemasons you're saving around 120w in villager seconds. This value increases a little bit if you factor in Gangsaw but it also decreases a little bit if you factor in things like walking time. In general, Stonemasons is a terrible card and you're better off sending the standard shipments.

Your math is wrong. You also get your free villagers earlier which doubles your saved villager seconds. But the card is still super shit, obviously.

Funnily, team faster manors might be worth it in 3v3 with double or triple brit. You save 18*2 = 36 villager seconds per manor. 20*36 = 720 villager seconds = 310w. Now if you assume double brit it becomes 620w and then also your third team-mate benefits from this. Which comes quite even with VC. Lul. It's a discovery card.

True, I hadn't factored the earlier villagers in.
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Re: The card "stonemasons" worth it?

Post by dansil92 »

I think stonemasons has its specific uses for very specific civs that have the outpost style blockhouse/war huts/nobles huts but definitely not one v one supremacy and definitely not for brits
(Or double shipment patch :lol: )
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Re: The card "stonemasons" worth it?

Post by edeholland »

somppukunkku wrote:
Mr_Bramboy wrote:20*36 = 720 villager seconds = 310w. Now if you assume double brit it becomes 620w and then also your third team-mate benefits from this. Which comes quite even with VC. Lul. It's a discovery card.
720*0.5 is actually 360w, so it's even better. But it pays off late since you probably won't have 20 manors early on (especially with double brits).
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Re: The card "stonemasons" worth it?

Post by VooDoo_BoSs »

Can we boost the card to 85% / 90% to make it worthwhile on EP?

I think there are a lot of terrible cards that should be boosted to improve game variety / creativity in strategies.
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Re: The card "stonemasons" worth it?

Post by yemshi »

While it would indeed be "cool" to see more cards, more variety of units (Tashunke, Halbs, Mantlets, Keshik, etc...) this is and will not be goal for EP.
The goal for EP is to create a better version of DE and all people in here being mad that DE developers literally release a fancy-looking but horrible imbalanced patch :flowers:
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Re: The card "stonemasons" worth it?

Post by scarm »

yemshi wrote:The goal for EP is to create a better version of DE and all people in here being mad that DE developers literally release a fancy-looking but horrible imbalanced patch :flowers:


Honestly my heart s going to be broken if DE sucks.

Oh yeah and also Mantlets aren't bad and have a place in treaty.
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Re: The card "stonemasons" worth it?

Post by Riotcoke »

yemshi wrote:While it would indeed be "cool" to see more cards, more variety of units (Tashunke, Halbs, Mantlets, Keshik, etc...) this is and will not be goal for EP.
The goal for EP is to create a better version of DE and all people in here being mad that DE developers literally release a fancy-looking but horrible imbalanced patch :flowers:

We can just port EP to DE :)
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Re: The card "stonemasons" worth it?

Post by deleted_user »

yemshi wrote:While it would indeed be "cool" to see more cards, more variety of units (Tashunke, Halbs, Mantlets, Keshik, etc...) this is and will not be goal for EP.
The goal for EP is to create a better version of DE and all people in here being mad that DE developers literally release a fancy-looking but horrible imbalanced patch :flowers:

This *was* the goal of EP. Who knows now...
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Re: The card "stonemasons" worth it?

Post by gamevideo113 »

Smh keshik are already op, you just don't understand them
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Re: The card "stonemasons" worth it?

Post by jgals »

in treaty some civ can slip it in. I think for french sneaky stable for instacuir can be good, and maybe for a civ with battlefield construction if they also get that(then again it might not affect military units building)
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Re: The card "stonemasons" worth it?

Post by VooDoo_BoSs »

yemshi wrote:While it would indeed be "cool" to see more cards, more variety of units (Tashunke, Halbs, Mantlets, Keshik, etc...) this is and will not be goal for EP.
The goal for EP is to create a better version of DE and all people in here being mad that DE developers literally release a fancy-looking but horrible imbalanced patch :flowers:


What's the downside? Does everybody really enjoy seeing semi-FF game after game after game?

This game has so much variety but due to imbalances only a few core strategies are viable.
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Re: The card "stonemasons" worth it?

Post by dansil92 »

I think stonemason is essential for aztec in treaty since all their military buildings build so slow making fb nearly impossible otherwise. Thats just my experience but its the only time i think its worth it (or cheeky town dance agro walls but dont do that)
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Re: The card "stonemasons" worth it?

Post by jgals »

dansil92 wrote:I think stonemason is essential for aztec in treaty since all their military buildings build so slow making fb nearly impossible otherwise. Thats just my experience but its the only time i think its worth it (or cheeky town dance agro walls but dont do that)

yes it was mainly aztec I was talking about when i said its useful for treaty. agreed. I think it's actually necessary for az , and they can basically fit it in their deck, but they might be the only civ its necessary
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Re: The card "stonemasons" worth it?

Post by yemshi »

jgals wrote: yes it was mainly aztec I was talking about when i said its useful for treaty. agreed. I think it's actually necessary for az , and they can basically fit it in their deck, but they might be the only civ its necessary

RE otto can also fit in whatever shit they like :p
VooDoo_BoSs wrote:
What's the downside? Does everybody really enjoy seeing semi-FF game after game after game?

This game has so much variety but due to imbalances only a few core strategies are viable.

It's quite a few "core" strategies and A LOT of adaption/variency tbh.
We'll just run in circles if we make more and more viable/useful. Because everytime we do even little things (as spanish 400g card) we step a bit further away from RE AND potentially balance at the same time.
We asked ourselves the question of what EP's goal should be many times and we always came to the conclusion that having a (semi-)balanced RE where everyone could theoretically just hop on is just superior. It is also a problem of playerbase, sadly. The more we do, the less comprehensive it is for newer or lower players.


Personally I'd even be fine with adding new things if I were to decide in a vacuum. For now I and we prefer that very game we all learnt to love years and over decade ago :flowers:
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Re: The card "stonemasons" worth it?

Post by jgals »

anyone know if it affects russian musk/ sepoy/jan/Iro inf building time as well as villager build time?
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Re: The card "stonemasons" worth it?

Post by dansil92 »

As far as i recall stonemasons is tagged for villagers only. Each unit has seperate build points eg. Building tps faster with explorers, settler wagons build double speed etc.
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Re: The card "stonemasons" worth it?

Post by jgals »

dansil92 wrote:As far as i recall stonemasons is tagged for villagers only. Each unit has seperate build points eg. Building tps faster with explorers, settler wagons build double speed etc.

don't settler wagons build with more than double speed? Since they are worth 2.4 vils or something? it would be less efficient then to build with them, but I thought i remember reading somewhere the most efficient way to build was with 1 settler wagon on a foundation. If they only build 2x as fast and not 2.4x it would be better to have them gathering and regular vils building huh?
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Re: The card "stonemasons" worth it?

Post by Kaiserklein »

SWs build twice as fast as a vil. So you spend the same VS by building with them, but it's up twice as fast.
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Re: The card "stonemasons" worth it?

Post by gamevideo113 »

Adding vills on a building doesn't scale in a linear way tho. SW is more efficient because it bulds twice as fast, 2 normal vills would build at like 1.5x the speed of a normal vill. SW uses less vs
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