Some general MU questions

[Kawapasaka]

Some MUs that have been giving me trouble. It occurred to me that I really had no effective plan for any of them. Any general advice for any or all would be greatly appreciated (From the civ on the left's side of things) -

Spain vs Otto (generally an FF war)
Spain vs Iro (got rushed extremely hard - 4 kanya almost sieged my in-base tower entirely before it went up)
Spain vs India (consulate rush specifically)
France vs India (also with consulate timing, not sure if it counts as a rush - but basically by the time I'm age 3 there's 20 sepoy 6 redcoats and 4 sowar under my TC and nothing I can ship will ever kill them)
Japan vs Otto (FF early-ish falcs)
Japan vs Brits
Brits vs French
Brits vs Germany

All EP

[deleted_user]

I dj mmm

[[Armag] diarouga]

1) As Spain you want to go for a fast fast fortress strategy. You need to age to colonial with 15 villagers and to fortress with 17 villagers. First you want to trade the falconets if possible, then skirm/rod vs the jan/mam timing should do the job.
Another (unstandard) option is to go full lancer and engage his army just before his sends the mams.

2) Again, you need to fast ff, and trap his army with the 4huss from age up+dogs+7rods+mm and then go for a fast skirm/rod/falc timing.

3) Spain vs India is not easy. I'd recommend the 700c/CM/700w ff to hold the pressure and then take down the agra with skirm/falc/pike.

4) France vs India is usually France favoured. You should musk semi and you will have 15musks (10+5while aging) when he pushes. Send the 8 bows if needed, you should hold. In age 3 skirm/goon/falc will kill the agra and give you the map control.

5) You have to ff as well. I'd go 600w/600c and try to start aging to fortress at 7min with 5-6vills on the wonder. Then go ashi with the 2 arrows shipments.

6) Japan vs Brit is hopeless.

7-8) As Brit against France/Germany you should probably go for a VC semi ff. At lower level, musk/huss might work too.

[Kawapasaka]

1) As Spain you want to go for a fast fast fortress strategy. You need to age to colonial with 15 villagers and to fortress with 17 villagers. First you want to trade the falconets if possible, then skirm/rod vs the jan/mam timing should do the job.
Another (unstandard) option is to go full lancer and engage his army just before his sends the mams.

2) Again, you need to fast ff, and trap his army with the 4huss from age up+dogs+7rods+mm and then go for a fast skirm/rod/falc timing.

3) Spain vs India is not easy. I'd recommend the 700c/CM/700w ff to hold the pressure and then take down the agra with skirm/falc/pike.

4) France vs India is usually France favoured. You should musk semi and you will have 15musks (10+5while aging) when he pushes. Send the 8 bows if needed, you should hold. In age 3 skirm/goon/falc will kill the agra and give you the map control.

5) You have to ff as well. I'd go 600w/600c and try to start aging to fortress at 7min with 5-6vills on the wonder. Then go ashi with the 2 arrows shipments.

6) Japan vs Brit is hopeless.

7-8) As Brit against France/Germany you should probably go for a VC semi ff. At lower level, musk/huss might work too.

Thanks! Just two things to clarify - is Japan's FF okay with a Kami start and does a "fast fast fortress" with Spain mean never building a TP regardless of the start?

[[Armag] diarouga]

FF as Japan usually means kami, else you have no eco.
As Spain, you always want to build a TP, regardless of the strat.

[Luciofrancosi]

1).

4) France vs India is usually France favoured. You should musk semi and you will have 15musks (10+5while aging) when he pushes. Send the 8 bows if needed, you should hold. In age 3 skirm/goon/falc will kill the agra and give you the map control.

Any tips on how to defend properly against their rush? I always get all or most of my army killed when I try to do the musk semi against India even with how shipments!! Sometimes I can't even age up!!
I only did it correctly once but most times I won was either playing colonial or cuz Indian player went for a defensive Agra or a karni Mata build

[tedere12]

1).

4) France vs India is usually France favoured. You should musk semi and you will have 15musks (10+5while aging) when he pushes. Send the 8 bows if needed, you should hold. In age 3 skirm/goon/falc will kill the agra and give you the map control.

Any tips on how to defend properly against their rush? I always get all or most of my army killed when I try to do the musk semi against India even with how shipments!! Sometimes I can't even age up!!
I only did it correctly once but most times I won was either playing colonial or cuz Indian player went for a defensive Agra or a karni Mata build

if they sepoy rush pull your army behind tc and if they commit just call minutemen and pull cdbs, this will clean their army up and you can age easily.

[Mitoe]

1).

4) France vs India is usually France favoured. You should musk semi and you will have 15musks (10+5while aging) when he pushes. Send the 8 bows if needed, you should hold. In age 3 skirm/goon/falc will kill the agra and give you the map control.

Any tips on how to defend properly against their rush? I always get all or most of my army killed when I try to do the musk semi against India even with how shipments!! Sometimes I can't even age up!!
I only did it correctly once but most times I won was either playing colonial or cuz Indian player went for a defensive Agra or a karni Mata build

Are you getting your vill upgrades? Great Coat and Blunderbuss make it pretty easy to hold usually (blunderbuss doesn’t add a lot of damage but the extra 4 range on your CDBs helps a lot). 12 Sepoy can’t really break 5-10 muskets + Minutemen and upgraded CDBs with potential TC fire. Just make sure you don’t lose any vills and you’ll be fine.

If he tries to follow up with 4 Sowar you should still be ok as you’ll have at least 15 muskets hopefully at this time. If you are really having trouble holding this still, just chop some extra wood for houses and send 8 bows as your second card instead of 700w. Afterwards you should be able to age pretty safely with 700c.


As a general rule of thumb to make it super easy to hold, if India ages before you do, especially if it’s really early, you can consider shipping 8 bow first instead of 4v. If you age before them, send 4v first.

[Kazamkikaz]

1).

4) France vs India is usually France favoured. You should musk semi and you will have 15musks (10+5while aging) when he pushes. Send the 8 bows if needed, you should hold. In age 3 skirm/goon/falc will kill the agra and give you the map control.

Any tips on how to defend properly against their rush? I always get all or most of my army killed when I try to do the musk semi against India even with how shipments!! Sometimes I can't even age up!!
I only did it correctly once but most times I won was either playing colonial or cuz Indian player went for a defensive Agra or a karni Mata build

Are you getting your vill upgrades? Great Coat and Blunderbuss make it pretty easy to hold usually (blunderbuss doesn’t add a lot of damage but the extra 4 range on your CDBs helps a lot). 12 Sepoy can’t really break 5-10 muskets + Minutemen and upgraded CDBs with potential TC fire. Just make sure you don’t lose any vills and you’ll be fine.

If he tries to follow up with 4 Sowar you should still be ok as you’ll have at least 15 muskets hopefully at this time. If you are really having trouble holding this still, just chop some extra wood for houses and send 8 bows as your second card instead of 700w. Afterwards you should be able to age pretty safely with 700c.


As a general rule of thumb to make it super easy to hold, if India ages before you do, especially if it’s really early, you can consider shipping 8 bow first instead of 4v. If you age before them, send 4v first.

Well at least for us noob is not that ezier cause i alot of the time playing this mu i age with 13 vills and not hunting dogs and still when i hv 5musk and about 5 coming he is in my base with 12 sepoys and monges and i hold it pretty ezly, the problem is when i try age after that i just lose vs sepoy + sowar timing

[deleted_user0]

@Diarouga

I'm not exactly sure about Japan-Brits honestly. Would like to see you bash turk/tabben atleast 3 times in a row to show that.

Versus a passive japan it's very easy, burn shrine, outboom, outmass.
But in a current meta there is always a threat of almost pure yumi pushing to your fb. This makes sieging shrines efficiently hard, but you have to secure your hunts as brit. Also pushing to japan base is hard because of lb's can't really kite and threat of pops. I play this, on average, quite even with top jap players but its definitely not easy.

In general, I feel this is easier on TP maps and narrow maps to prevent re-shrining, and force japs to actually push far out.

On the other hand, last time I played this MU, it was turk got 100% of map treasures and adi which allows 3 boats.

[deleted_user0]

If you think brit-japs is impossible, then how can we determine german-japan MU?????

[Hazza54321]

I think brit jap is fairly even nowadays. Ger vs jap seems literally impossible for jap unless some crazy yumi + building fight

[[Armag] diarouga]

I usually go kami against brit, it might be why I can't win it. Ger vs jap is impossible yes.

[Luciofrancosi]

@Mitoe ; @tedere12 Thanks for the tips, I really appreciate it!!

[Kawapasaka]

As Spain, you always want to build a TP, regardless of the strat.

Does that mean during transition even on a 200w start? I didn't think a 15v age up was feasible if you have to chop 100w in discovery as well.

[[Armag] diarouga]

As Spain, you always want to build a TP, regardless of the strat.

Does that mean during transition even on a 200w start? I didn't think a 15v age up was feasible if you have to chop 100w in discovery as well.

Always in transition. I don't like age 1 TP with Spain.

[Mitoe]

Show hidden quotes

1).

4) France vs India is usually France favoured. You should musk semi and you will have 15musks (10+5while aging) when he pushes. Send the 8 bows if needed, you should hold. In age 3 skirm/goon/falc will kill the agra and give you the map control.

Any tips on how to defend properly against their rush? I always get all or most of my army killed when I try to do the musk semi against India even with how shipments!! Sometimes I can't even age up!!
I only did it correctly once but most times I won was either playing colonial or cuz Indian player went for a defensive Agra or a karni Mata build

Are you getting your vill upgrades? Great Coat and Blunderbuss make it pretty easy to hold usually (blunderbuss doesn’t add a lot of damage but the extra 4 range on your CDBs helps a lot). 12 Sepoy can’t really break 5-10 muskets + Minutemen and upgraded CDBs with potential TC fire. Just make sure you don’t lose any vills and you’ll be fine.

If he tries to follow up with 4 Sowar you should still be ok as you’ll have at least 15 muskets hopefully at this time. If you are really having trouble holding this still, just chop some extra wood for houses and send 8 bows as your second card instead of 700w. Afterwards you should be able to age pretty safely with 700c.


As a general rule of thumb to make it super easy to hold, if India ages before you do, especially if it’s really early, you can consider shipping 8 bow first instead of 4v. If you age before them, send 4v first.

Well at least for us noob is not that ezier cause i alot of the time playing this mu i age with 13 vills and not hunting dogs and still when i hv 5musk and about 5 coming he is in my base with 12 sepoys and monges and i hold it pretty ezly, the problem is when i try age after that i just lose vs sepoy + sowar timing

I wouldn’t cut eco. Make sure you get hunting dogs and stuff. That eco will help and you need the market for your vill upgrades anyway.

If you really have a lot of trouble holding a timing while aging you can try to age 1 card later. Something like 4v 700w 8 bow then 700c.

Most likely your opponent is doing a pretty all in build to get a timing to punish that. If any top player scouted what he was doing they may also choose to delay their age up by 1 card to hold it. If you feel the build isn’t working out you should just experiment with adaptations until you find something that works :)

[Garja]

There isn't much you can really do BO wise to improve your win rate with musk semi vs india. It's just all about perfect defense and then perfect technique when pushing out. If India somehow gets glorious age1 and you get shit one then it's very possible that you can't hold the rush and the follow up.

[Papist]

Well at least for us noob is not that ezier cause i alot of the time playing this mu i age with 13 vills and not hunting dogs and still when i hv 5musk and about 5 coming he is in my base with 12 sepoys and monges and i hold it pretty ezly, the problem is when i try age after that i just lose vs sepoy + sowar timing

If he's playing really all-in like that (which you can figure out early by scouting the wonder), a few strategic wall segments can be good. They can even help you trap his sowars with a MM pop.