2 towers as Dutch vs Russia?

[Astaroth]

I am not in the know with regards to the current meta and my mechanics are way too rusty atm to properly try this, but is it at all viable to go 2 towers as Dutch to hold a Russian rush/timing?

Note that I am mostly talking about the no TP, no water maps (otherwise Russia can outboom very easily) and in combination with some walling plus good herding. I am also NOT talking about the 2 tower shipment, as it is shit.

The idea: chop a lot of wood after clicking up to Age2, use it to build 1-2 towers before aging up ASAP plus a few walls, all close to your TC, instead of a bank right away (to prevent them getting denied by 5 coss). Afterwards, go standard 700w, bank wagon, 600w, rax if necessary, otherwise age3.

Obvious downside: 500w "wasted". However, compare that to the alternatives: Russia could otherwise permabell you; or you could send CM, but that might still not deter a rush, the extra MM cost a lot, the TC requires vills inside and it guarantees less map control than 2 towers.

If Russia doesn't engage at all, you can age safely and 500w is still cheaper than rax plus 8 pike and 5 skirm. Midterm you should still outboom, even if your banks go up a bit later. Even if Russia FFs instead, seeing the 2towers, dutch should have the advantage despite being down 500w (that's less than e. g. sending a useless age2 shipment like 8 pikes).

Or am I missing something? Does Russia just siege down walls and 2 towers even with TC fire as well?

[[Armag] diarouga]

Nah, would rather send CM.

[boyu]

Dutch age earlier than Russia and you should have your first bank up before you age, so there's no chance of it being denied by 5 cos. Also, in the bigger picture, when the Russian player sees you've dropped 2 towers, they'll just go back and contain until you run out of resources. So basically, don't do this.
That being said, I would still recommend watching the Two Towers, even if it's the worst out of the three LOTR films.

[HUMMAN]

1 tower can be good since one shots rusket with TC.

[Astaroth]

Nah, would rather send CM.

Why though? usually you wouldn't skip 3v, so CM effectively becomes an Age2 shipment, worth 700 res. So is CM worth 2 towers plus 200 res? (plus some building VS)

Also, CM is not as effective as 2 towers when you have only 1TC.

@boyu: but if you have enough hunt (EP maps) and walls with 2 towers behind, how much containing can Russia really do before you are Age3 and can pressure yourself?

Ususlally, the problem is that Russia doesn't care about losses because it's worth it for them to deny banks and idle villa. But if they have to siege down a wall under 2 tower fire, can they really contain you much?

[[Armag] diarouga]

Nah, would rather send CM.

Why though? usually you wouldn't skip 3v, so CM effectively becomes an Age2 shipment, worth 700 res. So is CM worth 2 towers plus 200 res? (plus some building VS)

Also, CM is not as effective as 2 towers when you have only 1TC.

@boyu: but if you have enough hunt (EP maps) and walls with 2 towers behind, how much containing can Russia really do before you are Age3 and can pressure yourself?

Ususlally, the problem is that Russia doesn't care about losses because it's worth it for them to deny banks and idle villa. But if they have to siege down a wall under 2 tower fire, can they really contain you much?

CM is better than 2 towers.
Towers can be killed, TC can't, also CM gives you the big mm button.

[deleted_user0]

One tower is totally underrated versus Russia. With good TC+tower micro you keep 1 hitting ruskets, only with 250w investment, this also makes it scary for Russia to go in as huss flank+mm might finish your game. No reason to make 2, though.

Really good as fre/germ, as dutch it's a bit harder to sneak in before pressure. Not sure about that.
Oh wait, no, tower must be terrible because it's not part of bot-meta. Better cry how hard it is to defend Russia, for example as Fre.

[HUMMAN]

Towers can be killed, TC can't

imba tc op

[deleted_user0]

Honestly, my tip is to go for 1-tower build. Even though many pros probably disagree, it's basically CM damage for only 250w. Plus shipment point. But make you sure you micro your tower+tc fire well.

[boyu]

@boyu: but if you have enough hunt (EP maps) and walls with 2 towers behind, how much containing can Russia really do before you are Age3 and can pressure yourself?

Ususlally, the problem is that Russia doesn't care about losses because it's worth it for them to deny banks and idle villa. But if they have to siege down a wall under 2 tower fire, can they really contain you much?

500w is a lot to invest into something that doesn't actually help your eco, especially so early in the game. Plus, containing means not pushing into walls/towers/tc fire, but rather waiting it out until Dutch has to push out for res. And honestly, I think with Russian vill scaling, their eco will catch up quite quickly... Can even just age and slow push with cannons.

[supernapoleon]

I wonder if the 4 Tower card in age 3 is better than the fort card in this match up

[P i k i l i c]

I wonder if the 4 Tower card in age 3 is better than the fort card in this match up

Why 1 Fort > 4 towers (remember from Goodspeed's guide) and it trains units

[[Armag] diarouga]

I wonder if the 4 Tower card in age 3 is better than the fort card in this match up

Why 1 Fort > 4 towers (remember from Goodspeed's guide) and it trains units

That's only true if you can build your fort, which is impossible in 1v1 most of the time.
In team the fort can be really good however.

[rsy]

greatscythe11 always built an outpost as germans. he was obviously ahead of the meta

[P i k i l i c]

I wonder if the 4 Tower card in age 3 is better than the fort card in this match up

Why 1 Fort > 4 towers (remember from Goodspeed's guide) and it trains units

That's only true if you can build your fort, which is impossible in 1v1 most of the time.
In team the fort can be really good however.

I see, good point, vs good or aggressive players it is impossible to build it haha. Never heard of it in team, with what civ and with what plan would you send it ?

[[Armag] diarouga]

Show hidden quotes

I wonder if the 4 Tower card in age 3 is better than the fort card in this match up

Why 1 Fort > 4 towers (remember from Goodspeed's guide) and it trains units

That's only true if you can build your fort, which is impossible in 1v1 most of the time.
In team the fort can be really good however.

I see, good point, vs good or aggressive players it is impossible to build it haha. Never heard of it in team, with what civ and with what plan would you send it ?

Idk, I never see it in high level games, but people often go for it in random gp 3v3 and it's quite good actually.

[Kazamkikaz]

Nah, would rather send CM.

Why though? usually you wouldn't skip 3v, so CM effectively becomes an Age2 shipment, worth 700 res. So is CM worth 2 towers plus 200 res? (plus some building VS)

Also, CM is not as effective as 2 towers when you have only 1TC.

@boyu: but if you have enough hunt (EP maps) and walls with 2 towers behind, how much containing can Russia really do before you are Age3 and can pressure yourself?

Ususlally, the problem is that Russia doesn't care about losses because it's worth it for them to deny banks and idle villa. But if they have to siege down a wall under 2 tower fire, can they really contain you much?

-If you start with 200w and make tp in age1 and chop wood for house while send 3 vill+CM and make a bank in transition to age2, u will hv a shipment right away in age2.
-The problem of 2 towers and some walls is over defending, alot noobs does that, sacrifice market ups, banks, army prodution etc to over protect themself from rush with towers and walls and end up lose the game because the agressive opponent just goes back and prepare for age3 with cannons etc and control the map, unless u are doing some kind of FI or water boom, make towers and walls is defending too much.
2 tower do basic damage of 2x30 +90 (with 10 vills inside) from tc is already 150, CM does 135 basic (90+50% of CM) damage so u invest 500w which ofc worth less than 700 resources of a age2 shipment but end up having less 2 banks, no army and with threat of lose tower which takes less time than TC.
I would say if u want make tower 1 is enough cause 90 damage from tc +30 from tower gives u enough damage to kill a strelet or rusket with 1 combo hit.