A guide to the Dutch semi-FF

arriah · Post by **arriah** » 05 Nov 2015, 11:55

Yes, please update this Jerom! Dutch is my fave and more strats would be a great help when I move to TAD ^.^

momuuu · Post by **momuuu** » 05 Nov 2015, 15:46

I was planning to try to improve the write up and do the match up section (finally lol). I am not sure it's worth updating it specifically because of EP though, but I might devote a little section to it. To be honest, Dutch just does the same thing in my eyes, except that they do it better. I've been seeing some neat slower more colonial oriented strats that I'd like to add in the future though, not sure yet as it is currently a guide to the semi FF (which is my eyes is basically a full guide haha, but still) so not sure yet. I'll probably think about it a little.

I guess what I am trying to say is that I am probably going to to the match up section upcoming weekend.

purplesquid · Post by **purplesquid** » 07 Nov 2015, 01:10

Awesome! Great to hear. . .

momuuu · Post by **momuuu** » 12 Jan 2016, 14:28

Could this be readded to the strategy wall?

iNcog · Post by **iNcog** » 12 Jan 2016, 19:43

momuuu · Post by **momuuu** » 05 Mar 2016, 03:04

I added some replays. Should still do an EP update and still need match ups. I'm considering rewriting part of it since I've changed my mind a million times on everything by now.

BrookG · Post by **BrookG** » 05 Mar 2016, 08:13

_venox_ wrote:Against germans could a huss ruyter based combo, starting double ruyter then sending 1k food for 10 huss and 4 huss for the timing work? Everytime I've seen an art foundry the dutch player lost, and rax stable is really hard to pull off aswell imo due to just having less army out in early fort. Maybe if dutch players abuse walls like kynesie or a japan player then dutch skirm ruyter will be way stronger imo.

I don't thing whether this would work. Even with proper microing against skirm+vet uhlan it's hard. If german pushes with uhlans, while kiting ruyters take hits from skirms. Maybe halb huss, but I haven't tried that.

zoom · Post by **zoom** » 05 Mar 2016, 12:50

Still, a great piece of work already, Jerom!

Papist · Post by **Papist** » 09 Mar 2016, 13:02

Bump! Great guide.

pecelot · Post by **pecelot** » 17 Sep 2016, 22:11

Jerom wrote:The match ups
Soon to be added.

fei123456 · Post by **fei123456** » 28 Mar 2017, 11:39

Why didn't I notice this strategy for 2 years? lol

Good work, but I have a few comments here:
1. I prefer wagon over 700w in most cases. Dutch usually age up fast, and 5 hussar in opponent's base at 5:30 can really do some damage, but 5 hussar after 6:00 don't really work. You shouldn't only consider the eco of your own, but the damage you dealt to opponent's eco too.
2. Isn't a market or a TP good with 200w start? I think the answer is "yes".
3. TPboom can be available on many maps. You'll need some units to defend the TP route, but 200w for 4v is much more cost-effective than a bank (and extra XP too). 3TP+stagecoach=200f 800w, while 2 banks=700f 700w: you'll know why TP>>>>>bank. You can train some units to defend them, and if you don't need that, you can do a 3-4 TP 4bank semiff with INSANE eco, while still reach age 3 at around the same time. Also, fish boom is good in some situations.
4. 12 swiss pikemen>7 black rider imo. Swiss can deal massive damage if your opponent army is sieging under TC, and they can be necessary in age 3 fights: they can be considered as dopple/samurai in age 3. Dutch can usually win a ranged fight, but your opponent usually tries to crush you with melee combos (Chinese cav+monk+changdao, cuirass, uhlan, lancer+rod, etc).
5. 4 hussar>7 ruyters. 7 ruyter=735 resources lol. 4 hussar=800, and you always need melee cav in age 3 (while you usually have tons of ruyters).
6. 2 heavy cannon>15% bank efficiency. If you can't take advantage in a fortress war, you can try to go industrial, and immediately push with 30 guard musketeer+2 heavy cannon. (or revolt with tupee+militia+endless mercenaries from saloon.)

momuuu · Post by **momuuu** » 28 Mar 2017, 11:48

Lots of side cases imo.
1. it's unlikely that your 5 hussar from bank wagon will do any significant damage against just about any civ. Maybe vs china/japan. You really should try 700w more, that build order is so smooth and strong.
2. I don't know. My experience tells me the answer is no. The TP one is maybe. Just whenever I do it I'm not doing well in the game afterwards.
3. I don't think TP boom is viable. You don't have the tools to defend TPs at all against almost any civ. If they steal a TP your TP boom is basically ruined and you don't need more eco against civs. Theres just not a match up where I'd consider it. Fish boom is fine I just ignore water maps because fuck water maps.
4. I'm alternating between swiss pikes and black riders, I think both are situational and rare shipments either way. Black rider surely does more good against civs that are likely to pressure you in colonial though. Otherwise I've been electing swiss pikes but I'm not too sure about those either.
5. I think if you were to actually look at the villager seconds then ruyters are worth more.
6. Possibly, 15% bank efficiency is honestly not a good card. Not really like you want the heavy cannons either but I suppose those are better and I think I do run those in my deck now.

pecelot · Post by **pecelot** » 28 Mar 2017, 12:03

What would the build order for a fish boom look like then? :hmm:

momuuu · Post by **momuuu** » 28 Mar 2017, 12:04

This isn't a Guide to the Dutch fish boom.

fei123456 · Post by **fei123456** » 28 Mar 2017, 12:13

Jerom wrote:Lots of side cases imo.
1. it's unlikely that your 5 hussar from bank wagon will do any significant damage against just about any civ. Maybe vs china/japan. You really should try 700w more, that build order is so smooth and strong.
2. I don't know. My experience tells me the answer is no. The TP one is maybe. Just whenever I do it I'm not doing well in the game afterwards.
3. I don't think TP boom is viable. You don't have the tools to defend TPs at all against almost any civ. If they steal a TP your TP boom is basically ruined and you don't need more eco against civs. Theres just not a match up where I'd consider it. Fish boom is fine I just ignore water maps because fuck water maps.
4. I'm alternating between swiss pikes and black riders, I think both are situational and rare shipments either way. Black rider surely does more good against civs that are likely to pressure you in colonial though. Otherwise I've been electing swiss pikes but I'm not too sure about those either.
5. I think if you were to actually look at the villager seconds then ruyters are worth more.
6. Possibly, 15% bank efficiency is honestly not a good card. Not really like you want the heavy cannons either but I suppose those are better and I think I do run those in my deck now.

The meaning of tpboom:
1. punish slow civs (ff china, boom japan etc) on certain maps. tpboom is much faster than bank boom.
2. don't let your opponent take control of the tp route. if your opponent take full control of the map, your 3bank/4bank won't bring you any eco advantage at all.
if you can take control of a tp route you don't need banks at all. on certain maps (texas, patagonia, etc) I'll defenitely start TP rather than bank.

pecelot · Post by **pecelot** » 28 Mar 2017, 18:36

Jerom wrote:This isn't a Guide to the Dutch fish boom.

This doesn't have to prevent you, or anybody else in specific, from answering the question :flowers:

ESOC

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