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Bavaria j_t_kirk
Lancer
Posts: 599
ESO: j_t_kirk
Location: Bavaria

13 Aug 2019, 20:17

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Back to the great AOE3 strategies. We saw in the past some nice MU of the week already. Last MU was Port vs India
The meta changes, the player skill level changes, and the patch changes. Some high-level 1v1 players from our lovely community want to show up in a Bo5 Bo7 (Two games more Image). Let's find out what they could do.

Every at least once per month Sometimes ( :hmm: ) a thread will be opened where you can discuss a certain MU. This week's MU is Sioux vs Iroquois (@Diarouga thx for your suggestion). Hopefully, the discussion will be in depth and top players will share their insight.


What is the current meta?
What strategy fits best for each map?


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@Kaiserklein Image @Mitoe


The map pool:
Arizona - - - Adirondacks - - - Pampas Sierras - - - Alaska - - - Arkansas - - - Kamchatka - - - Manchuria

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You can find a list of ESOC maps here: maps.php

Welcome! Credit for this idea goes to @kami_ryu as well as @musketeer925 , @BrookG ,@lemmings121 & @Diarouga building upon it. They are the masterminds behind this pretty nice idea!

All played MU's you can find here: https://eso-community.net/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=13821
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France [Armag] diarouga
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NWC LAN Gold
Posts: 9317
ESO: diarouga
Location: France

13 Aug 2019, 20:22

I'd say that this MU is overall Iro favoured.
Maybe I'm wrong because I've been underrating Sioux for years now, but it just feels like Iro is better at everything.

Their rush is super scary, and although I'm confident Sioux can hold, the Sioux player is definitely not going to age to fortress if the Iro player pushes in colonial.
I guess you can also ff as Iro. The Iro ff/semi ff is basically like the French ff, except it's faster and you get better skirms and better goons, and I'd say that Sioux vs France is quite close.

Furthermore, Iro has the option to go water, and wall, and then there's no much Sioux can do about it (I'd like to see some water play on Alaska, else it will be boring).

It really feels like Iro can do anything and the only option for Sioux is to hit that 16 min dogsoldier timing, but I'm not sure it's strong enough.
"dia abused the explorer really well I'm impressed"
Bran6new
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Great Britain Riotcoke
ESOC Media Team
Posts: 1216
ESO: Riotcoke
Location: Best County in the UK

13 Aug 2019, 20:22

Looks great, can't wait to watch this ;)
"STOP EATING LIKE A NOOB - GET GAMERFOOD" - Johnathan FATAL1TY Wendel

FROM IVY, OUT MIDDLE, THROUGH OUR CONNECTOR, LIKE A SPEED DEMON
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Canada dansil92
Dragoon
Posts: 485
ESO: dansil92

14 Aug 2019, 00:31

Its really gonna come down to how effectively sioux can raid, and if iro can keep momentum 100% of the time. Forest prowler musket rider is far superior to anything sioux can make, but sioux in general is exceptional at punishing mistakes. The dog soldier timing of course adds to the fun, and if the game goes extremely late then things can get very interesting with light cannons, age 4 dog soldiers, champion forest prowlers, lots of good dynamics.

Tldr: probs iro favoured but potential for sioux to punish mistakes
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Canada Mitoe
ESOC Media Team
EWTNWC LAN Top 8
Posts: 4027
ESO: Mitoe
GameRanger ID: 346407

14 Aug 2019, 03:19

I don't think it's so simple. It's a complex matchup and I think Sioux has a lot going for them in this matchup--they were often the most successful civ vs Iroquois in tournaments on RE patch aside from mirror or Otto.

It's difficult to fb vs Sioux because the warchief + pets can deny the warhut foundation so easily by snaring/blocking and then the area damage from the warchief deleting the foundation (area damage deleting foundations should maybe be patched, even?), and therefore can be hard to do anything in Colonial or take TPs (which is normally what Iro would like to do) comfortably.

I don't think it's necessarily bad for either civ; really I don't know how it goes, but I know that it's definitely not a free win for Iroquois at all, and likely not a free win for Sioux, either.
No Flag umeu
Gendarme
Posts: 9873

14 Aug 2019, 03:40

sioux wins on any map with good tres guardians or age1 nats.
Bhutan jgals
Lancer
Posts: 548
ESO: OstiferButthole
Location: USA

14 Aug 2019, 03:44

[Armag] diarouga wrote:I'd say that this MU is overall Iro favoured.
Maybe I'm wrong because I've been underrating Sioux for years now, but it just feels like Iro is better at everything.

Their rush is super scary, and although I'm confident Sioux can hold, the Sioux player is definitely not going to age to fortress if the Iro player pushes in colonial.
I guess you can also ff as Iro. The Iro ff/semi ff is basically like the French ff, except it's faster and you get better skirms and better goons, and I'd say that Sioux vs France is quite close.

Furthermore, Iro has the option to go water, and wall, and then there's no much Sioux can do about it (I'd like to see some water play on Alaska, else it will be boring).

It really feels like Iro can do anything and the only option for Sioux is to hit that 16 min dogsoldier timing, but I'm not sure it's strong enough.


did you really just call musket riders better goons??? How bad am I that I could never even think of being able to afford musket riders in Fortress? How does IRO realistically afford to ever make kanye or MR??? Sure y ou can ship them, but seems like you have to be so far ahead for this.
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Italy gamevideo113
Howdah
Posts: 1044
ESO: gamevideo113

14 Aug 2019, 07:35

They are cheaper than goons, how can iro not afford them?
Eat pasta, run fasta :love:
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Serbia ShinkuroYukinari
Musketeer
Posts: 53
ESO: ShinkuroYukinari

14 Aug 2019, 07:43

I am leaning towards Sioux in this matchup. A good Sioux player can make an Iro hide in his base due to the sheer mobility of BR and AR, which alongside Dogs can handle most of what Iro can train. And Native eco sucks hard. Iro sorta has to FF imo as FP can shut down BR and RR very hard, and if the map has good treasures, you know the Sioux's gonna abuse it.
First get to Age 4, then complain about Bulgaria :hehe:
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France [Armag] diarouga
Gendarme
NWC LAN Gold
Posts: 9317
ESO: diarouga
Location: France

14 Aug 2019, 07:58

I 3-0'd bsop in this MU on the RE while he was 10pr better than me back then because there was nothing Sioux could do honestly.
On EP it's closer of course.

I agree with Mitoe about the area damage denying building, it should get patched.
"dia abused the explorer really well I'm impressed"
Bran6new
No Flag umeu
Gendarme
Posts: 9873

14 Aug 2019, 08:24

re is totally different obviously, since on EP iro is nerfed a little and sioux buffed a lot. But even on re it wasn't actually a bad mu for sioux, as long as they could get a lot of tres guardians. also because the RE maps have such shit food, sioux raids were so much scarier.
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Greece BrookG
ESOC Media Team
Posts: 1154
ESO: BrookG
Location: not Amsterdam

18 Aug 2019, 19:45

Soon at 21:30 GMT Kaiserklein and Mitoe will play the MU out! Somebody with further ideas on how it's played?
Correlation doesn't mean causation.
http://www.tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations

"mr.brookg go buy jeans and goto the club with somppuli" - Princeofkabul, July 2018
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Canada dansil92
Dragoon
Posts: 485
ESO: dansil92

18 Aug 2019, 19:51

I say sioux favoured on pampas and alaska, iro on the other maps, but maybe we'll see some inca cheese, some fast industrials, and things will go completely different. Lets hope for some crazy :)
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France [Armag] diarouga
Gendarme
NWC LAN Gold
Posts: 9317
ESO: diarouga
Location: France

18 Aug 2019, 19:58

Sioux favoured on Alaska, how? Iro has a great water boom.
"dia abused the explorer really well I'm impressed"
Bran6new

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