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MU of the month: Sioux vs Iroquois
Posted: 13 Aug 2019, 20:17
by j_t_kirk
Re: MU of the month: Sioux vs Iroquois
Posted: 13 Aug 2019, 20:22
by [Armag] diarouga
I'd say that this MU is overall Iro favoured.
Maybe I'm wrong because I've been underrating Sioux for years now, but it just feels like Iro is better at everything.
Their rush is super scary, and although I'm confident Sioux can hold, the Sioux player is definitely not going to age to fortress if the Iro player pushes in colonial.
I guess you can also ff as Iro. The Iro ff/semi ff is basically like the French ff, except it's faster and you get better skirms and better goons, and I'd say that Sioux vs France is quite close.
Furthermore, Iro has the option to go water, and wall, and then there's no much Sioux can do about it (I'd like to see some water play on Alaska, else it will be boring).
It really feels like Iro can do anything and the only option for Sioux is to hit that 16 min dogsoldier timing, but I'm not sure it's strong enough.
Re: MU of the month: Sioux vs Iroquois
Posted: 13 Aug 2019, 20:22
by Riotcoke
Looks great, can't wait to watch this
Re: MU of the month: Sioux vs Iroquois
Posted: 14 Aug 2019, 00:31
by dansil92
Its really gonna come down to how effectively sioux can raid, and if iro can keep momentum 100% of the time. Forest prowler musket rider is far superior to anything sioux can make, but sioux in general is exceptional at punishing mistakes. The dog soldier timing of course adds to the fun, and if the game goes extremely late then things can get very interesting with light cannons, age 4 dog soldiers, champion forest prowlers, lots of good dynamics.
Tldr: probs iro favoured but potential for sioux to punish mistakes
Re: MU of the month: Sioux vs Iroquois
Posted: 14 Aug 2019, 03:19
by Mitoe
I don't think it's so simple. It's a complex matchup and I think Sioux has a lot going for them in this matchup--they were often the most successful civ vs Iroquois in tournaments on RE patch aside from mirror or Otto.
It's difficult to fb vs Sioux because the warchief + pets can deny the warhut foundation so easily by snaring/blocking and then the area damage from the warchief deleting the foundation (area damage deleting foundations should maybe be patched, even?), and therefore can be hard to do anything in Colonial or take TPs (which is normally what Iro would like to do) comfortably.
I don't think it's necessarily bad for either civ; really I don't know how it goes, but I know that it's definitely not a free win for Iroquois at all, and likely not a free win for Sioux, either.
Re: MU of the month: Sioux vs Iroquois
Posted: 14 Aug 2019, 03:40
by deleted_user0
sioux wins on any map with good tres guardians or age1 nats.
Re: MU of the month: Sioux vs Iroquois
Posted: 14 Aug 2019, 03:44
by jgals
[Armag] diarouga wrote:I'd say that this MU is overall Iro favoured.
Maybe I'm wrong because I've been underrating Sioux for years now, but it just feels like Iro is better at everything.
Their rush is super scary, and although I'm confident Sioux can hold, the Sioux player is definitely not going to age to fortress if the Iro player pushes in colonial.
I guess you can also ff as Iro. The Iro ff/semi ff is basically like the French ff, except it's faster and you get better skirms and better goons, and I'd say that Sioux vs France is quite close.
Furthermore, Iro has the option to go water, and wall, and then there's no much Sioux can do about it (I'd like to see some water play on Alaska, else it will be boring).
It really feels like Iro can do anything and the only option for Sioux is to hit that 16 min dogsoldier timing, but I'm not sure it's strong enough.
did you really just call musket riders better goons??? How bad am I that I could never even think of being able to afford musket riders in Fortress? How does IRO realistically afford to ever make kanye or MR??? Sure y ou can ship them, but seems like you have to be so far ahead for this.
Re: MU of the month: Sioux vs Iroquois
Posted: 14 Aug 2019, 07:35
by gamevideo113
They are cheaper than goons, how can iro not afford them?
Re: MU of the month: Sioux vs Iroquois
Posted: 14 Aug 2019, 07:43
by ShinkuroYukinari
I am leaning towards Sioux in this matchup. A good Sioux player can make an Iro hide in his base due to the sheer mobility of BR and AR, which alongside Dogs can handle most of what Iro can train. And Native eco sucks hard. Iro sorta has to FF imo as FP can shut down BR and RR very hard, and if the map has good treasures, you know the Sioux's gonna abuse it.
Re: MU of the month: Sioux vs Iroquois
Posted: 14 Aug 2019, 07:58
by [Armag] diarouga
I 3-0'd bsop in this MU on the RE while he was 10pr better than me back then because there was nothing Sioux could do honestly.
On EP it's closer of course.
I agree with Mitoe about the area damage denying building, it should get patched.
Re: MU of the month: Sioux vs Iroquois
Posted: 14 Aug 2019, 08:24
by deleted_user0
re is totally different obviously, since on EP iro is nerfed a little and sioux buffed a lot. But even on re it wasn't actually a bad mu for sioux, as long as they could get a lot of tres guardians. also because the RE maps have such shit food, sioux raids were so much scarier.
Re: MU of the month: Sioux vs Iroquois
Posted: 18 Aug 2019, 19:45
by BrookG
Soon at 21:30 GMT Kaiserklein and Mitoe will play the MU out! Somebody with further ideas on how it's played?
Re: MU of the month: Sioux vs Iroquois
Posted: 18 Aug 2019, 19:51
by dansil92
I say sioux favoured on pampas and alaska, iro on the other maps, but maybe we'll see some inca cheese, some fast industrials, and things will go completely different. Lets hope for some crazy :)
Re: MU of the month: Sioux vs Iroquois
Posted: 18 Aug 2019, 19:58
by [Armag] diarouga
Sioux favoured on Alaska, how? Iro has a great water boom.