Iroquois turtle viable?

[Astaroth]

Way back in the day, the Iro turtle was considered really lame and OP. Back then, people would go 3 TC with the great house card (back then, it was +100 % attack, I think) and boom with firepit, travois and agrarian ways. Later on, especially the great house card got nerfed and nobody did the Iro turtle anymore.

Do you think it is at all viable today? Obviously Iro might have other better strats, I'm just wondering if it makes any sense at all. Comparing it to the (land) Port turtle:

- Iro don't get free TCs
- the great house card is arguably worse than CM because it doesn't grant extra MM
- Iro don't have MM at all
- however, Iros have a few advantages: they get free travois (warhuts for defense or mills/plantations), they get agrarian ways (booming without needing as much map control), they have better skirms than ports, they get light cannons in age4. You could maybe also go town dance etc. Iro also have a fire pit, vill shipments etc (faster start/better early eco than Ports)
- additional options might include walls, improved buildings etc.

Against typical FFs you might for example go standard eco Iro (straight) FF, like (with TP): 3 vills, warhut in base (nex to/behind TC), 5 vills (gather all the res or send 600 res as well), great house, go up, age3, second travois either plant/mill or another warhut, immediately build a second TC close to your first (one TC should take out e.g. 2 falcs), maybe walls as well, then adapt: either some FPs with walls for defense or 3rd TC, 1200 res, eventually go age4 and/or boom.

What do you think?

[[Armag] diarouga]

It's bad today because your opponent will get stagecoach and outboom.

[Astaroth]

Depends on the map, though?

I mean, some maps have in base TP, others don't allow TPs close to the opponents TC etc. So on many maps, the opponent will only have like a 2 TP advantage, which is like 8 vills. Sounds like a lot, but you also need to invest lots of res for that. Additionally, Iro will have 3 TCs and maybe even fertility dance. Not to mention that most civs don't go straight stagecoach, especially not VS Iro. So the TPs might only be up and running at like minute 10.

Not to mention that Iro can also adapt. If you go for lots of TPs right away, Iro can BB plus 5 tomas and siege them.

[Garja]

Agrarian ways it's not as OP as it was. It would be a viable way of playing if resources were somewhat scarces but they aren't on EP. With that said, once natural resources start to run out Iro has an advantage and can do this.

[SoldieR]

Ya great house was super op, as it made TCS better than CM and made them cheaper, I think 200 or 300w. Add in argarian ways which at that time GAVE you all the farm and plantation ups immediately, rather than just making them free, and iro boom was op.

In wcg regionals in 2007 I played h20 and we both knew about great house. At that time I was a Sioux only player. Game 1 I beat his Spain with Sioux. Game 2 was on Yukon and he went iro and did the great house build. I was Sioux again and lost easily. I had played vs it before and had no counter strat so either after game 2 or game 3 I actually forfeited the series. xD damn Great House

[dansil92]

On RE Iro can just naked FI in around 9 1/2-10 min and get 4 light cannons, the big tomahawk shipment (like 16-18 cant remember exactly) and then 1500 res for getting the big buttons and upgrading Tomas (this is a fun little build of mine).
The turtle was popular partly due to great house-town dance letting you one shot falcs, that maps were lower res and iro can generate res from nothing (travois agrarian ways combo), and most importantly because they can guarantee a tradepost or two, and get those villager shipments rolling so easily

[macacoalbino]

Ya great house was super op, as it made TCS better than CM and made them cheaper, I think 200 or 300w. Add in argarian ways which at that time GAVE you all the farm and plantation ups immediately, rather than just making them free, and iro boom was op.

In wcg regionals in 2007 I played h20 and we both knew about great house. At that time I was a Sioux only player. Game 1 I beat his Spain with Sioux. Game 2 was on Yukon and he went iro and did the great house build. I was Sioux again and lost easily. I had played vs it before and had no counter strat so either after game 2 or game 3 I actually forfeited the series. xD damn Great House

Should have native scout rushed him last game for the memes xD