Japan vs India?

[Astaroth]

Now this is not so much a request for help and more a question about balance/a particular matchup.

Is it just me or does it seem like this MU is fairly one-sided in favour of India when considering equal skill and effort? Now I'm NOT saying that Japan can't beat India. There are even situations in which Japan has an edge (probably on water with heavy turtling).

But it seems to me that India has a much, much easier time vs Japan than vice versa. Meaning that Japan can win if they play really well/do a counterbuild, but India wins if they do just one cookie cutter build (even if Japan expects it) and the Japanese player makes just 1 mistake.

An example of this is the monociv cup, Somppu vs. Mitoe. Sure, Mitoe won some games, but you have to consider that Somppu did almost the exact same bot build every game (consulate rush) and still Mitoe lost games due to 1-2 small mistakes (despite doing a counter build/defense) whereas India is in a better spot throughout.

India has just so many advantages:

1. If Japan doesn't defend the intial push perfectly (well timed MM, maybe vills fighting, walls) they just die on the spot.
2. Even if the first push fails, India still is in a soid position: due to free vills+trickle, they have basically the same eco (see recalc eco pop in the aforementioned games), have map control (agra), often even a TP as well and their eco is less vulnurable (shrines).
3. India's army isn't really weaker than Japan's until a lot of upgragdes+daimyo come in. India's army is also less susceptible to being trapped, caught and killed; it is more mobile.
4. In age3, India can boom with map control, siege shrines, pop Urumi for defense (ceasefire or not); Japan meanwhile has to be very careful.

I feel like Japan only has the edge if they can water boom freely and/or manage to get to a large, upgraded ashi/yumi army with a good eco. At that point, Japan is probably stronger. However, they can only get there if they play flawlessly, whereas India can just bot build and still have many advantages and shots at victory.

Thoughts?

[[Armag] diarouga]

It is indeed much much easier to play India. India just has to rush or siege shrines while you have to defend and macro well as Japan. However, assuming perfect play, Japan should win imo.

I don't think that taking the mono civ cup as an example is relevant because I don't consider Mitoe's build (300w first into shrine boom) to be any good and he went very greedy in these games.

1. Well, don't go greedy and pick a safe enough build (like fully wall your base or start ashi and ship a military shipment, it can go really wrong if you start yumi).
2. If you go kami (and not 300w), you have an eco advantage if India's push doesn't work (the score is misleading, Japan is ahead if the score is the same). India will have map control but it doesn't really matter tbh.
3. Again, just wall all the map and you're fine.
4. Yeah, you have to be careful.

As I said, assuming perfect play and a good map, I think that Japan wins. It just takes practice :)
I'm usually happy to play this MU as Japan on a decent map.

[amiggo1999]

Feels kinda hopeless as India vs a good jap player.

[Kawapasaka]

I actually quite like this MU as Jap at my level, but at the same time I also find it frustrating sometimes. Your point about India doing the same easy, straightforward thing every game while Japan has to do everything pretty much perfectly is fair, but that's true for India in most of their matchups.
Basically I find you just have abuse Yumi+W (and I mean near-complete walls, enough that even for 12 sepoy vs 5 yumi it's too painful to go around) against early pressure, then just defend shrines with Ashi-Yumi (add nagis later if he goes really gurkha-heavy). Depending on the relative speed of our age-ups and how many walls I managed to put down (sometimes India blocks with monks which is quite effective if they pay attention) I'll also ship 5 Yumi first. Deck-scouting can annoyingly make this pretty useless though as they'll just go straight to booming and shrine-sieging, ignoring your base. I Kami every single game (probably a mistake, but I'm stuck in my ways at the moment) then 600w then 4v and upgrades if he appears to be staying colonial longer, otherwise double 600c (using some for Ashi so I can defend shrines in transition and some for market upgrades) straight into Way of the Bow, unless I'm really desperate for units. I always put down a barracks the second I hit colonial and always wall unless I've scouted an in-base build from India.

The two main things I find annoying are:
1) Maps where the Agra controls a ridiculous amount of map (e.g. Tassili, Fertile Crescent, Herald Island) to the point where defending more than half of your shrines is impossible.
2) India's inexplicable ability to out-boom, even if I stay at 200 kami pop for ages, even if I deny stagecoach, even if I sneak in 4v once or twice before aging, on-top of all the market upgrades... Even if they don't touch water, even if I got the consulate boats in early, even if I don't lose a single vill the whole game.

Luckily India has a slight weakness to RI stronger than their own Gurkha, so if you can get a big enough carded Yumi mass going, you'll probably win in the long-term.

[[Armag] diarouga]

This MU is impossible on Tassili and Herald Island yea because at one point you'll only have like 10 shrines. idk about Fertile Crescent

[Kawapasaka]

This MU is impossible on Tassili and Herald Island yea because at one point you'll only have like 10 shrines. idk about Fertile Crescent

Fertile Crescent because so many of the hunts are on the side bits and you have to commit to going a long way through the chokes to get there, just begging to be trapped and cleaned up basically. Feels like I'm playing against Sioux when I'm playing against India on that map. Terrified of leaving my base.
I was also gonna mention Cascade but come to think of it you only have like 3 shrines on his side of the map anyway (and clearly going Kami like always I do is a big mistake there). Maybe Bengal too.

Maps I enjoy as Japan in this MU, and typically as Japan in general, are Baja (unless my opponent goes water because I'm always too lazy to try contesting it), Kamchatka, Colorado, Great Basin and obviously Florida for the positively brooken nat upgrades.

[Astaroth]

It is indeed much much easier to play India. India just has to rush or siege shrines while you have to defend and macro well as Japan. However, assuming perfect play, Japan should win imo.

I don't think that taking the mono civ cup as an example is relevant because I don't consider Mitoe's build (300w first into shrine boom) to be any good and he went very greedy in these games.

1. Well, don't go greedy and pick a safe enough build (like fully wall your base or start ashi and ship a military shipment, it can go really wrong if you start yumi).
2. If you go kami (and not 300w), you have an eco advantage if India's push doesn't work (the score is misleading, Japan is ahead if the score is the same). India will have map control but it doesn't really matter tbh.
3. Again, just wall all the map and you're fine.
4. Yeah, you have to be careful.

As I said, assuming perfect play and a good map, I think that Japan wins. It just takes practice :)
I'm usually happy to play this MU as Japan on a decent map.

Isn't kami greedier, than 300w/3 boats, though?

I lack experience as Japan, but shouldn't kami mean later consulate and/or barracks and/or just less shrines than with 300w?

So essentially what you are saying is that Japan has to full wall to stand a chance, right? Although even then you probably need to go military shipment first because the wall on EP gets sieged too fast.

Tbh I really hate playing against India, especially consulate rush (not 10/10). Also e.g. as France on no TP it seems extremely hard to hold. If I go 4 cdb, 700w with musk defense, I feel like I just can't hold the push because he has more and much stronger units. I would probably need walls, explorer snare, perfectly timed MM, 4 cdb --> 8bows (or even double rax start) to hold, but if one of these is missing (e.g. dead explorer), seems gg.

If you don't have great mechanics, playing against India sucks.

[[Armag] diarouga]

It is indeed much much easier to play India. India just has to rush or siege shrines while you have to defend and macro well as Japan. However, assuming perfect play, Japan should win imo.

I don't think that taking the mono civ cup as an example is relevant because I don't consider Mitoe's build (300w first into shrine boom) to be any good and he went very greedy in these games.

1. Well, don't go greedy and pick a safe enough build (like fully wall your base or start ashi and ship a military shipment, it can go really wrong if you start yumi).
2. If you go kami (and not 300w), you have an eco advantage if India's push doesn't work (the score is misleading, Japan is ahead if the score is the same). India will have map control but it doesn't really matter tbh.
3. Again, just wall all the map and you're fine.
4. Yeah, you have to be careful.

As I said, assuming perfect play and a good map, I think that Japan wins. It just takes practice :)
I'm usually happy to play this MU as Japan on a decent map.

Isn't kami greedier, than 300w/3 boats, though?

I lack experience as Japan, but shouldn't kami mean later consulate and/or barracks and/or just less shrines than with 300w?

So essentially what you are saying is that Japan has to full wall to stand a chance, right? Although even then you probably need to go military shipment first because the wall on EP gets sieged too fast.

Tbh I really hate playing against India, especially consulate rush (not 10/10). Also e.g. as France on no TP it seems extremely hard to hold. If I go 4 cdb, 700w with musk defense, I feel like I just can't hold the push because he has more and much stronger units. I would probably need walls, explorer snare, perfectly timed MM, 4 cdb --> 8bows (or even double rax start) to hold, but if one of these is missing (e.g. dead explorer), seems gg.

If you don't have great mechanics, playing against India sucks.

Kami allows you to get a good eco at one point, it's not necessarily greedier though. Imo you should build a rax right when you reach the 2nd age against India and Mitoe waited the 600w shipment to build it, thus one less unit batch.

As Japan you build your consulate in age 1 anyway, so kami instead of 300w means less shrines in early game but more in late game (and easier to replace them).

You don't have to full wall to hold the rush but I'd recommand doing it. You don't need to go military shipment first unless you're facing a 10/10. 600w/5ashis is usually enough.

[Garja]

I think that in the end it's probably a balanced MU just like all TAD MUs.
I think you need in depth knowledge of what to do from both sides in case the opponent is also prepared and knows what to do. Probably without much knowledge India plays more intuitevely, or rather both play intuitevely but it is easier as India since you dictate the game from the start.
I can tell you that Japan doesn't necessarily have to shrine boom every single time in this MU. In fact if you look at old recs,full shrine boom wasn't the common play even when Jap was op in 2008. You can play that style with a 300w start maybe but on other start it's totally fine to skip the port consulate and even play somewhat aggressively (Japan has reasons to push the issue since India is on hunts and if allowed to age up has strong fortress shipments).
Again look at old recs (pre wcg era) if you want to get a grasp on the MU since the meta has been quite the same since then.

[[Armag] diarouga]

I think that in the end it's probably a balanced MU just like all TAD MUs.
I think you need in depth knowledge of what to do from both sides in case the opponent is also prepared and knows what to do. Probably without much knowledge India plays more intuitevely, or rather both play intuitevely but it is easier as India since you dictate the game from the start.
I can tell you that Japan doesn't necessarily have to shrine boom every single time in this MU. In fact if you look at old recs,full shrine boom wasn't the common play even when Jap was op in 2008. You can play that style with a 300w start maybe but on other start it's totally fine to skip the port consulate and even play somewhat aggressively (Japan has reasons to push the issue since India is on hunts and if allowed to age up has strong fortress shipments).
Again look at old recs (pre wcg era) if you want to get a grasp on the MU since the meta has been quite the same since then.

Ashis were op before, that's a big difference.

[Astaroth]

I actually feel like ghurka are a big problem in this MU early on. Not full ghurka, but just a few of them -- that makes going ashi very unattractive, destroys clubs and Japan usually can't have cav that early w/o sacrificing a lot (also risky vs sepoy, zamb). Otherwise (if India instead had some type of weaker bow unit) Japan could probably go full ashi+shinobis and be fine.

[gamevideo113]

Sentries and tc fire should help defending against the first 4 sowars-3 hussars, to an extent. At least in my experience. For more cav you just need ashi or yamabushi though, yeah.

[Hazza54321]

Jap wins on two conditions. A map you can reach a decent shrine pop. And having 2 layers of wall

[Garja]

You can kinda win other ways too.

[princeofcarthage]

You can kinda win other ways too.

Please don't.

[Garja]

Lmao, I mean like going aggro

[edeholland]

You can kinda win other ways too.

Please don't.

Was thinking the exact same thing.

[gamevideo113]

The "kinda win" made it soo perfect lol

[rsy]

Japan vs India is fun

[Astaroth]

Lmao, I mean like going aggro

Can Japan get out enough mass with like 300w/2vills, 5 ashix2, 300 export etc to beat India's consulate rush mass with a few ghurka? I kinda doubt it. And even if you can win the fight, you shouldn't be able to challenge the agra and your eco will be horrible with like no booming potential (didn't send 600w, 4 vills, kami, no Portuguese consulate...).

I feel like aggro Japan would only work VS an Indian FF or if India plays super greedy, which most players at least till lt col (and even somppu etc) just don't do.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Lmao, I mean like going aggro

Can Japan get out enough mass with like 300w/2vills, 5 ashix2, 300 export etc to beat India's consulate rush mass with a few ghurka? I kinda doubt it. And even if you can win the fight, you shouldn't be able to challenge the agra and your eco will be horrible with like no booming potential (didn't send 600w, 4 vills, kami, no Portuguese consulate...).

I feel like aggro Japan would only work VS an Indian FF or if India plays super greedy, which most players at least till lt col (and even somppu etc) just don't do.

If India doesn't overboom or overcommits, then you want break agra in age 2.

[Garja]

Lmao, I mean like going aggro

Can Japan get out enough mass with like 300w/2vills, 5 ashix2, 300 export etc to beat India's consulate rush mass with a few ghurka? I kinda doubt it. And even if you can win the fight, you shouldn't be able to challenge the agra and your eco will be horrible with like no booming potential (didn't send 600w, 4 vills, kami, no Portuguese consulate...).

I feel like aggro Japan would only work VS an Indian FF or if India plays super greedy, which most players at least till lt col (and even somppu etc) just don't do.

[[Armag] diarouga]

You should have just posted your game against Somppu, that huge noob bashing isn't very relevant.

[Garja]

which most players at least till lt col (and even somppu etc) just don't do.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Well you can beat pr30 guys with agressive Japan ofc. When someone is asking a question, he probably expects the best answer.