Otto vs India?

[Astaroth]

I watched theonlybaus vs Forjustice in the ESOC premier league and while India lost, I feel that the MU should be India favoured. What do you think, what are the ideal strats for both civs?

I feel India's best shot is this: go mid map agra, because otto will either jan/abus or tower FF.

- vs jan/abus: just play aggressively with early 4 sowars (4 sowars as first age2 shipment). Make 5 sepoy, then only ghurka. Otto will go 700w, 700g, so you can push when he has about 10 jan 5 abus vs your 7 sepoy, 5 ghurka, 4 sowar. India should win this fight with good micro. Then Otto is in a bad spot, because small batches of abus without backup are useless. Siege foundry while surrounding it, catch all new abus. Send like 300xport/5 sepoy, destroy his FB, his TPs, get them yourself.

(if otto plays in base jan/abus with stagecoach, which is better for him, it is a bit harder. Then go for his TPs instead with a bit slower timing; if he stays on the defensive, you need a lot of camels with ups, jan/abus struggles vs cav masses because you want to kite back and jans have shit damage. Instead, a semi-FF for mahouts/urumi might also work, but it is risky and you will lose agra)

- vs tower FF: basically only make sepoys. He can't have more than like 4/5 abus (ageup/shipment), which die easily. Sepoys do okay against vet jans because you will have much more. Pressure and idle him early (=delay), try to kill any trained jans, don't overcommit underneath his TC. If he manages to get up, just go back. Sepoys can focus down falcs in 2-3 groups or at least you have 3 huss 4 sowar for that.

Vs an FF, a straight sepoy rush (maybe consulate rush with 6 redcoats) might also just win. Otto doesn't get 8 xbow, no age up skirms, no skirm shipment, no goons, no WWs. Even if they up, what do 4 huss plus MM and later (!) 8 unupgraded jans do vs like 20+ sepoy and 6 redcoats? Kill all of his houses, then rax, then leave.

----

How does India lose this matchup? --> play too greedily/passively. If you let him get more than 10 abus and 20 jans in age2 with full TP line, it becomes very hard. an otto stagecoach is a boom, so you should rush him hard (see above).

You also shouldn't just let him FF freely and then have like 20 age2 ghurka , 10 zambs, 4 sowar vs falcs, vet jans and mams.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Jan/abus and FF actually both beat forward agra.

The scary thing is defensive agra. Then you have to jan/abus and play very precisely.

[Astaroth]

But how does Otto hold a full rush when jan/abus with FB?

I mean check the times, if Otto goes 3v, 700w, 700g, and India trickle age1, 4 sowar, it will be like

7 Sepoy, at least 5 ghurka, 4 sowar and 5 Sepo shipment plus 5 ghurka otw vs 10 Jan 5 abus. Otto should lose this. Even just snaring with cav and focusing the abus.

If Otto doesn't go FB, India can ship like 5 Sepoy first and siege the TPs furthest away from Otto base, retreating, 300 export, 4 sowar and only attack when Otto pushes the agra or leaves his base.

The FF also seems risky. If India goes full sepoy consulate rush with 6 redcoats, it will be a lot of musk type units in base sieging houses, then leaving. Can Otto get enough mass to hold?

Back in the day as Otto, I always found this MU most difficult when he plays aggressively, at least on RE maps.

[amiggo1999]

@Astaroth those numbers of units are completely inaccurate. India won't have close to that amount of units. This MU is very hard to win from india's side.

[scarm]

Idk if anyone has some experience with it, might just me being bad, but Howdah Urumi FF seemed quite decent vs otto to me.

[Astaroth]

@Astaroth those numbers of units are completely inaccurate. India won't have close to that amount of units. This MU is very hard to win from india's side.

Check out eg the game of theonlybaus vs forjustice: when Otto had like 5 abus and less than 10 Jans, India had the second age2 shipment and 2 full batches of units out, iE 2 Sepoy plus 4 sowar plus 5 Sepoy plus 5 ghurka (except in his case he made and sent only Sepoys).

It also makes sense, because while Otto ages faster than India, India has the rax already up when reaching age2. Also, Otto goes 2 crate shipments, India can go 1-2 unit shipments.

[amiggo1999]

@Astaroth otto already had the stagecoach researched at that point + built 3 tp's lol

[Astaroth]

I know. But if India had done what I described above, what would Otto do?

That's my point, a greedy stagecoach with FB can't hold an Indian aggressive play with 7 Sepoy, 5ghurka,4 sowar and 2 monks. Once the army is cleaned, Otto is kinda fucked.

The Foundry gets sieged from all sides, all new abus snared and killed, next comes like 5 Sepoy shipment and another trained 5 ghurka. Otto loses FB, loses like 2 TPs.

What does Otto do? Rebuild at home, send 5 Jans? But meanwhile India keeps massing and gets all TPs.

[[Armag] diarouga]

I know. But if India had done what I described above, what would Otto do?

That's my point, a greedy stagecoach with FB can't hold an Indian aggressive play with 7 Sepoy, 5ghurka,4 sowar and 2 monks. Once the army is cleaned, Otto is kinda fucked.

The Foundry gets sieged from all sides, all new abus snared and killed, next comes like 5 Sepoy shipment and another trained 5 ghurka. Otto loses FB, loses like 2 TPs.

What does Otto do? Rebuild at home, send 5 Jans? But meanwhile India keeps massing and gets all TPs.

A greedy stagecoach with fb can't hold forward agra yep.
A smart Otto won't fb (might even ff) against forward agra and will win.

[Astaroth]

Yeah, but India can also go like 1/3 forward agra.

Depending on the map, India is still in a good position if Otto goes in base jan/abus. Then you can siege his TPs, forcing him to engage before he gets a really large mass of jan/abus. Before that, it's not so hard to trap him with 3 huss 4 sowar and focusing abus.

Generally, I just believe "standard" defensive age2 India play with some ghurka and 2nd wood trickle is horrible VS Otto. Because Otto vs India will either boom (stagecoach) or tech (FF), meaning that an aggressive rush/contain with lasting damage is the best approach.

It might seem counter intuitive because Otto is fast and India slow, but imo you still have the best chances with that. If you try to match a really cheap, fast boom (stage) and stronger midgame units with a slow play or a fast FF with a slow FF, you are playing into his hands.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Yeah, but India can also go like 1/3 forward agra.

Depending on the map, India is still in a good position if Otto goes in base jan/abus. Then you can siege his TPs, forcing him to engage before he gets a really large mass of jan/abus. Before that, it's not so hard to trap him with 3 huss 4 sowar and focusing abus.

Generally, I just believe "standard" defensive age2 India play with some ghurka and 2nd wood trickle is horrible VS Otto. Because Otto vs India will either boom (stagecoach) or tech (FF), meaning that an aggressive rush/contain with lasting damage is the best approach.

It might seem counter intuitive because Otto is fast and India slow, but imo you still have the best chances with that. If you try to match a really cheap, fast boom (stage) and stronger midgame units with a slow play or a fast FF with a slow FF, you are playing into his hands.

If your agra isn't in TC range you will lose it to a timing, half map or 1/3 map.
India ff should beat Otto ff if you play it properly (though gold start can be tough sometimes). Rush will lose to Otto ff however (he will have enough jans to hold your rush and then you can't hold the falc timing).

On herdable maps, defensive Agra also does ok against jan/abus.

[Hazza54321]

Sepoy rush is not as bad as you think vs jan abus if they start 700w first. As he doesn’t have abus right away and ofc you outmass jans and sepoy are better. Can probably take out his rax and or force the abus gun factory home/ less ideal spot

[amiggo1999]

Sepoy rush is not as bad as you think vs jan abus if they start 700w first. As he doesn’t have abus right away and ofc you outmass jans and sepoy are better. Can probably take out his rax and or force the abus gun factory home/ less ideal spot

this sounds more like cheese

[[Armag] diarouga]

It is a cheese but hazza is a cheesy player who likes to gamble :)

[Hazza54321]

“Cheese” play is bad because its not standard!!

[[Armag] diarouga]

It's not always bad, it's a gamble.
If the opponent scouts or expects it, it puts you behind (and you're probably dead). Thus you're relying on your opponent making mistakes to win.

[Kaiserklein]

You should have abus almost out when they bring their sepoys, not sure how that's supposed to work

[Hazza54321]

Can work if youre an OG aoe player