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Xbow pike start only seems to work for me when I can focus all my troops, i.e. not have them running around on the map killing shrines.

I tried a cav semi to catch the heroes, but could only kill one of them and by then there were already too many shrines. My fortress push with falcs and cuirs couldn’t do enough damage, and when he got flaming arrows out, I was toast.

Any advice for pr25?

Which map are you talking about!! I can only think of one big map on re patch which has 3 tps!!
The build I always do on tp maps at least which I got from watching mitoe. U take tp line, make 5 pikes, 15 xbows kill shrines with pikes and use bows to protect them And age!!
I like using skirm-goon(cuirs are just too expensive and slow training to use early fort) and go for 2 timings, first one is with 2 falcs, kill a couple of buildings(if u can siege down the toshogu shrine it's a big deal) and retreat to keep the cannons alive.
U can later ship 1k wood and 1k gold make a foundry and make 4 or 5 extra falcs!! If you do it well you should have like 7 falcs a good mass of skirm and a good mass of goons!!
That is of course my personal preference but keep in mind Japan doesn't have a proper anti-artillery!! Flaming arrows can hardly deal with 2 falcs but they will not be able to deal with that many falcs and yabusame are their only option there!!

Semi FF, go 2nd TC and take TP line.
Irish used to do that with 3v/eco theory/4v and never push, just outboom while killing shrines.

That was scary.

U cant take tp line vs any jap playing age 2

Hazza54321 wrote:U cant take tp line vs any jap playing age 2

Yea so take 2 TPs and stagecoach from 1000w if he ages.

Musk semi is pretty simple and effective at this level, just gotta cover your falcs well. 3cdb/4cdb/700w/700c/2 falcs/3 cuirs/8 skirm/etc.

Make 10-15 musks in colonial and start sieging the closest shrines. Keep your invis scout around to see what Japan's sending your way. If he starts Yumis it's usually great for you. Keep your explorer around to melee snare them and clean them up easily with your first 5-10 musks. If he starts Ashis then ideally you should generally have 10 musks at the shrines you're sieging before he has 5 Ashi, then 15 before he has 10.

Then age, keep pumping out musks in transition. Get up a stable and put a few vills on wood as you're going to be dropping 200 on vet musks. Go straight to his base as soon as you get your falcs out (if he's being passive with his army you can keep sieging shrines the whole time while waiting for falcs). The great thing about sitting your falcs under Japan's TC is that when flaming arrows pop, the range advantage is nullified, and then falcs kill the FA faster than the FA kill the falcs. Just pay extremely close attention. That's if he follows you up (scout it!), if he's staying age 2 then you just have to make sure to cover your falcs really, really well. Destroying his consulate can be particularly annoying if you get it before he manages to switch from Ports to Japan (if he started Ports).

Then, just base your reinforcing batches off his composition. Generally make your first cav batch cuirs no matter what (you'll only get about 3 out in tandem with musk production at this point, but that's fine) just because your infantry is pure musk at this point. Again, if he's making Yumi this is generally great for you as you can't just go pure Yumi (needs Ashi to cover obviously) and then it's just one extra unit to upgrade for him if he follows up. Cuirs also molest them easily, and don't even do too bad against Ashi until he gets the age 3 multiplier/hp card in. If he's going pure Ashi (generally into Ashi-Nagi) start adding some skirms and goons. Grouping skirms with musks is just fine in this situation. If your falcs are alive you can keep making some musks to cover, otherwise you generally want to phase them out into the classic skirm-goon-cuir. If you can't end the game in early fortress, remember the arsenal upgrades - they are extremely important vs Japan - CIR in all situations and Caracole if he's going Ashi-Nagi.

manwithoutname wrote:Xbow pike start only seems to work for me when I can focus all my troops, i.e. not have them running around on the map killing shrines.

I tried a cav semi to catch the heroes, but could only kill one of them and by then there were already too many shrines. My fortress push with falcs and cuirs couldn’t do enough damage, and when he got flaming arrows out, I was toast.

Any advice for pr25?

I think you're actually talking about a game Vs me, what you did wrong in that game is not push quick enough, you had a nice mass and just used it all to siege shrines instead of harassing my base.

Also if I recall you need to defend your falcs a little better, you basically let them die to 4 ashis in melee.

But as @Kawapasaka said musk semi is good.

[Armag] diarouga wrote:

Hazza54321 wrote:U cant take tp line vs any jap playing age 2

Yea so take 2 TPs and stagecoach from 1000w if he ages.

Interesting thought to outboom Japan! I always wonderen how you get the wood for a TP line; do you send 600w as well, and also keep a couple vills on wood? Doesn’t that keep you in Colonial too long?

Riotcoke wrote:

manwithoutname wrote:Xbow pike start only seems to work for me when I can focus all my troops, i.e. not have them running around on the map killing shrines.

I tried a cav semi to catch the heroes, but could only kill one of them and by then there were already too many shrines. My fortress push with falcs and cuirs couldn’t do enough damage, and when he got flaming arrows out, I was toast.

Any advice for pr25?

I think you're actually talking about a game Vs me, what you did wrong in that game is not push quick enough, you had a nice mass and just used it all to siege shrines instead of harassing my base.

Also if I recall you need to defend your falcs a little better, you basically let them die to 4 ashis in melee.

But as @Kawapasaka said musk semi is good.

No I kind of knew what I did wrong vs you, I posted this because of a game I lost on Saguenay vs a much Lower opponent (pr 21)

manwithoutname wrote:

Riotcoke wrote:

manwithoutname wrote:Xbow pike start only seems to work for me when I can focus all my troops, i.e. not have them running around on the map killing shrines.

I tried a cav semi to catch the heroes, but could only kill one of them and by then there were already too many shrines. My fortress push with falcs and cuirs couldn’t do enough damage, and when he got flaming arrows out, I was toast.

Any advice for pr25?

I think you're actually talking about a game Vs me, what you did wrong in that game is not push quick enough, you had a nice mass and just used it all to siege shrines instead of harassing my base.

Also if I recall you need to defend your falcs a little better, you basically let them die to 4 ashis in melee.

But as @Kawapasaka said musk semi is good.

No I kind of knew what I did wrong vs you, I posted this because of a game I lost on Saguenay vs a much Lower opponent (pr 21)

Yeah that was me too

manwithoutname wrote:

[Armag] diarouga wrote:

Hazza54321 wrote:U cant take tp line vs any jap playing age 2

Yea so take 2 TPs and stagecoach from 1000w if he ages.

Interesting thought to outboom Japan! I always wonderen how you get the wood for a TP line; do you send 600w as well, and also keep a couple vills on wood? Doesn’t that keep you in Colonial too long?

He meant after you are already age 3
If u scout that the Japanese player is aging u send 1k wood and take the other 2 tps

One of the things I love about this match up is how everyone has their own specific elaborated build for it!!

I feel this match up is close.

As France, you should definitely siege some shrines in age2, at least to force a reaction. Aside from that, there are probably 2 options afterwards:

1. Strong musk 2 falc into cuir early Age3 push to either cripple or kill or
2. Map control into 2 TC, booming, holding, shrine sieging, then TP line etc.

Both strats have advantages: the first one forces Japan to react, forces mistakes and can be very hard to hold. However, it is also risky and if you're not good at protecting 2falcs, you can die easily.
The second one is safer, but has the risk of letting Japan out tech you, maybe go age4, send 7v twice etc. Also, you can be vulnerable to ashi raids etc.

What you probably don't want to do is a slower 11 min+ Age3 push, even if you have many cannons. A good Japanese player will prolly be able to hold it or just raid you all over. In other words, if you go for option 2 you should probably never push and just focus on guarding your hunts, TPs etc.

What I also wouldn't recommend is going stagecoach in age2. I feel that's only viable if he goes FF (rare) or if the TP line is safe behind your base. Otherwise the risk is just too high of him eventually taking down the TPs while you can't protect them or forcing you into age2 for too long.

Xbow pike rush also doesn't seem to work imo, it's very risky and not that hard to hold. Again, ashi raids are really annoying.

Tl;dr: safest bet is prolly to semi with musks and 1tp, siege some shrines, go 2falc for some early pressure but don't overcommit, go back, hold map with 2nd TC, mass units, don't attack, defend ashi raids.

Riotcoke wrote:

manwithoutname wrote:

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Riotcoke wrote:

manwithoutname wrote:Xbow pike start only seems to work for me when I can focus all my troops, i.e. not have them running around on the map killing shrines.

I tried a cav semi to catch the heroes, but could only kill one of them and by then there were already too many shrines. My fortress push with falcs and cuirs couldn’t do enough damage, and when he got flaming arrows out, I was toast.

Any advice for pr25?

I think you're actually talking about a game Vs me, what you did wrong in that game is not push quick enough, you had a nice mass and just used it all to siege shrines instead of harassing my base.

Also if I recall you need to defend your falcs a little better, you basically let them die to 4 ashis in melee.

But as @Kawapasaka said musk semi is good.

No I kind of knew what I did wrong vs you, I posted this because of a game I lost on Saguenay vs a much Lower opponent (pr 21)

Yeah that was me too

Haha ok, sorry for the salt!

.

manwithoutname wrote:

Riotcoke wrote:

Show hidden quotes

manwithoutname wrote:

Riotcoke wrote:

manwithoutname wrote:Xbow pike start only seems to work for me when I can focus all my troops, i.e. not have them running around on the map killing shrines.

I tried a cav semi to catch the heroes, but could only kill one of them and by then there were already too many shrines. My fortress push with falcs and cuirs couldn’t do enough damage, and when he got flaming arrows out, I was toast.

Any advice for pr25?

I think you're actually talking about a game Vs me, what you did wrong in that game is not push quick enough, you had a nice mass and just used it all to siege shrines instead of harassing my base.

Also if I recall you need to defend your falcs a little better, you basically let them die to 4 ashis in melee.

But as @Kawapasaka said musk semi is good.

No I kind of knew what I did wrong vs you, I posted this because of a game I lost on Saguenay vs a much Lower opponent (pr 21)

Yeah that was me too

Haha ok, sorry for the salt!

No worries, was an odd game :p

Yeah I think playing it boomy, making a few pikes or musks before aging, then quickly dropping another tc when you reach age 3, maybe a third one as well, and go skirm/cuir/falc and try to assert map control and out-boom him. Preemptively dropping an artillery foundry if you think they're going age 4 for culvs is also a very good idea, as 8 flaming arrows are pretty scary.

Lmao what if jap goes 2x 5 ashi and you have no way of scouting it until it's there, and then you hold fine but they just win but later.

Xbows sux dix

At any captain- level I'd just reccomend bow pike (5 pike, then just bows) into hidden huss switch. Bait the yumis out and right click.

3 cdb / 4 cdb / 700w / 700c

After that, 8 bows/3 huss to finish or 600c and age

Tbh, how can I reccomend any build vs jap? They can do anything.

Thank you all for the contributions, this inspired me to do some new builds

manwithoutname wrote:Thank you all for the contributions, this inspired me to do some new builds

Níce stuff!!

U have a whole Arsenal of builds to try now!! Give it a go at them all and just pick the one that works best for you!!
I will be happy to schedule some games playing as Japan so u can practice this MU a bit more!!(although I am still not very good with Japan).

!!

U can't really outboom Japan with euro civ apart brit and Russia in late age3 I guess

Mosx wrote:U can't really outboom Japan with euro civ apart brit and Russia in late age3 I guess

France can.

It simply depends on the build orders.

I would like to make a comparison between full Japanese Berry ups and steel traps of normal civs.