Is the porcelain tower really better than the academy?

[Astaroth]

See title.

I'm just asking because while 8v are great, isn't it better to have an additional 6 skirms (China can actually struggle in skirm count because they can't train batches of 5) plus crows, which while not great can force the opponent to engage or kill units if the opponent doesnt outmicro them properly.

Also, can China not already basically train units constantly from the academy, even without the 8v? And even if you go tower, you won't add a second war academy for a while.

So it seems the tower is only really better if you want mercs faster?

Obv the skirm wonder is better VS a rush or timing etc as well.

Tl;dr: doesn't the skirm wonder Grant you a larger unit mass as China around minute 10 or 11 due to additional skirms and crows, whereas the tower only pays off later on if you add a 2nd rax?

[deleted_user]

Depends.

[gamevideo113]

The thing is that you generally use the tower to get the wood you need for villages, since once you hit III with china your population goes stonks.
The war academy isn't a bad option but if you can get away with the tower it's better, also because crows have low range in age3.

[bwinner]

the academy gives 8 and not 6 skirms. Indeed when you want units out fast, you go for the academy.
The canons produced by academy often suck in age 3, so you the tower quickly provides you more efficient army.
Like at 10mins, you already have more stuff with the tower if you aged up at 7:30 I think.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Yea tower unless you're under pressure and need skirms to hold.

[Astaroth]

Cheers. Has anyone tried a direct comparison?

I feel the skirm wonder should give you a larger army in the first 11min or so? Or do you get housed too much?

Obviously the tower will be better over time, for an earlier age4 or a boom, but if you're just going for a big Age3 timing push, won't you have more mass?

[[Armag] diarouga]

Cheers. Has anyone tried a direct comparison?

I feel the skirm wonder should give you a larger army in the first 11min or so? Or do you get housed too much?

Obviously the tower will be better over time, for an earlier age4 or a boom, but if you're just going for a big Age3 timing push, won't you have more mass?

Tower gives you 900w by the time you get your crow iirc.
So tower is better at about 10min I'd say and you never want to timing before that (except maybe in mirror).

[Astaroth]

Yeah, it's better in terms of res, but the question is what you use them for.

For example if you only have 1 Tc and 1 war academy and can produce nonstop from both even without tower, then having more vills or res doesn't matter as long as you don't have another military building (which you prolly wont get that soon anyway).

So I am just wondering when the extra res from the tower will result in more units than the 8skirms and crow.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Yeah, it's better in terms of res, but the question is what you use them for.

For example if you only have 1 Tc and 1 war academy and can produce nonstop from both even without tower, then having more vills or res doesn't matter as long as you don't have another military building (which you prolly wont get that soon anyway).

So I am just wondering when the extra res from the tower will result in more units than the 8skirms and crow.

You can't produce non stop without tower.

[Goodspeed]

If the tower is better, it's not by much. It's great because you don't need vills on wood anymore, but the academy may open up the possibility for an early 1000w shipment since you have some extra units.

[[Armag] diarouga]

If the tower is better, it's not by much. It's great because you don't need vills on wood anymore, but the academy may open up the possibility for an early 1000w shipment since you have some extra units.

You can go tower and 1000c.

[Goodspeed]

Then you might also be able to go academy 1000w 1000c. But yeah, tower is probably better in situations where you can just sit and mass for a while. Still, if it is, it's not by much

[[Armag] diarouga]

Interesting.
Nobody ever sends 1000w though.

[Goodspeed]

Why the shit not. It's literally the best card in fortress

[princeofkabul]

Academy might be better against map control civs such as port russia and india. Crows become handful when you need to break out the position with minimal losses.

[bwinner]

Why the shit not. It's literally the best card in fortress

During my match vs @deleted_user4 the 1st game was a chinese mirror. We both did kind of similar builds, exept I shipped 1k w 1st in age 3 while he shipped only units. Since we didn't fight befor a while, so there is no better situation to ship 1k wood and still it didn't result in more units for me when we fought, so I conclude 1k w is never a good card.

[deleted_user]

Why the shit not. It's literally the best card in fortress

1kw feels clunky and shit for China. Good for pretty much every other civ if they can get away with it - but I don't think it synergizes with China and their batch system and typically trained banner armies (read: cav).

I actually asked Lukas in a twitch chat if aging w/skirms to send 1kw would be good and he said no, or something. At any rate, it might produce a slightly larger mass later but with a much, much larger risk attached - lack of tempo and map control, and your villages will be sub-optimally placed.

The tower gathers 1kw after 4.2 mins.

[Hazza54321]

I doubt you can even fit 1kwood in any china deck. Theres just never a reason to send it as china. Likewise with india.

[deleted_user]

And brit.

[dansil92]

Tower just stops you getting housed. Producing constantly from tc and war academy without it is 'doable' but not wothout getting housed perpetually. If you really want the siege the flying crow offers (read: russia, ports, etc.) just send 7 hand mortars. Crows kinda suck age 3. Id almost be willing to bet hand mortars do more damage to infantry than a fortress crow

[Goodspeed]

Why the shit not. It's literally the best card in fortress

1kw feels clunky and shit for China.

This makes sense but I do have to wonder to what extent this is because your build order isn't built around it. If you're not finding a way to use all that wood, I'd suggest delaying consulate until then, delaying some of the more wood heavy market ups, or even overpopping to make sure you don't need to chop for as many villages.

[gibson]

1k wood is mostly just shit as China. I mean why age with skirms and ship 1k wood when you could ship skirms and age with the tower?

[Goodspeed]

For one, because 1000w is much more valuable than the skirm shipment? I'm not saying it's better but that was not a very good argument

[Kaiserklein]

If you're not gonna use the 8 skirms from the age up for the tempo, you might as well not age with the academy. So yeah 1000w and academy don't seem to synergize well. I think if anything, you'd age with the porcelain tower and set it to coin while shipping 1000w, that would make the most sense to me.
But yeah for some reason people seem to dislike 1000w as china, maybe it's justified idk.

[gibson]

For one, because 1000w is much more valuable than the skirm shipment? I'm not saying it's better but that was not a very good argument

The whole “you should ship x shipment because it’s worth more villager seconds” is a terrible argument. You just don’t need 1k wood unless you’re planning on dropping more tcs, so only like 400-600 of that wood is gonna be relevant in the next few minutes. It makes no sense to age with skirms and than ship wood, why age with skirms in the first place if you’re just gonna go eco, and if youre gonna eco you age with the tower.