Is the porcelain tower really better than the academy?

[Goodspeed]

For one, because 1000w is much more valuable than the skirm shipment? I'm not saying it's better but that was not a very good argument

The whole “you should ship x shipment because it’s worth more villager seconds” is a terrible argument.

It's not an argument, it's a reason why you might go for 1000w and academy over 10 skirm and tower, which you asked for.

[Garja]

trickle of wood > 1k wood all ot once. Also trickle of resources > crappy crow every once in a while. Also 10 skirms + trickle of wood > 8 skirms + 1k wood.

[gibson]

For one, because 1000w is much more valuable than the skirm shipment? I'm not saying it's better but that was not a very good argument

The whole “you should ship x shipment because it’s worth more villager seconds” is a terrible argument.

It's not an argument, it's a reason why you might go for 1000w and academy over 10 skirm and tower, which you asked for.

That makes absolutely no sense. Youre aging with the wonder that short term is better while shipping a shipment that long term is better, when you can age with a wonder thats gonna give you more eco than youre eco shipment and ship a shipment that gives you more military value than the military you get from the wonder.

[Goodspeed]

I think many of you are being so easily dismissive of the card mostly because it doesn't fit current China builds. (example: "only 400-600 of that wood is relevant in the next few minutes"). To make good use of it, you'd have to change your build.

That said, it's quite possibly not viable.

[Goodspeed]

Show hidden quotes

For one, because 1000w is much more valuable than the skirm shipment? I'm not saying it's better but that was not a very good argument

The whole “you should ship x shipment because it’s worth more villager seconds” is a terrible argument.

It's not an argument, it's a reason why you might go for 1000w and academy over 10 skirm and tower, which you asked for.

That makes absolutely no sense. Youre aging with the wonder that short term is better while shipping a shipment that long term is better, when you can age with a wonder thats gonna give you more eco than youre eco shipment and ship a shipment that gives you more military value than the military you get from the wonder.

You're disregarding the fact that the academy also has a long term effect. The tower doesn't give you more eco than 1000w + flying crows every X minutes combined.

One example of a situation where I can see this being viable is if you can't afford to ship 700w in transition because you need to ship units to defend raids or other colonial pressure from an opposing semi-FF. You would then easily use all of the 1k wood immediately.

[Garja]

The card is viable, as you can drop a 2nd rax and villages faster (+ market techs) and then use the porcelain tower on gold to get units out of two raxes.
But the point is the tower wonder is still better than the confucian wonder. Without the resource trickle having a 2nd rax is useless so is sending 1k wood (which is going to be a mere replacement of the wood trickle).

[Goodspeed]

The card is viable, as you can drop a 2nd rax and villages faster (+ market techs) and then use the porcelain tower on gold to get units out of two raxes.
But the point is the tower wonder is still better than the confucian wonder. Without the resource trickle having a 2nd rax is useless so is sending 1k wood (which is going to be a mere replacement of the wood trickle).

Yeah, in games where you can afford tower and 1kw both it's obviously superior. But I think we're looking at situations where you can't afford to be quite that greedy.

[Garja]

In those games you go tower+unit shipment as it's superior to 8 skirms+1k wood.
Confucian is good in games when you are going to push out asap or in games where you desperately need those 8 skirms to survive. But those are not games where you send 1k wood. The only rare exception is when you held a rush with the skirm wonder but you lost buildings so 1k wood might be an option. Even then you have to consider whether still sending unit shipments and chopping for the buildings is better than waiting for 1k wood.

[gibson]

Yes thats really the point. Tower is better than skirm wonder in most situations, and if you have the tower youre better off either shipping units if youre gonna push or unit upgrades if you arent vs 1k wood. In fact youll see most china players dont even have 1k wood in deck. You either have iron troops or 1k wood and iron troops seem to be more useful.

[Lukas_L99]

Two reasons I don’t like 1k wood as china:
1. You don’t really have space for it in deck.
2. You usually send it when being greedy, in those situations I‘d rather send 1k coin and go age 4.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Yea this too. If you have time to send 1000w just FI.

[Goodspeed]

Academy + 1000w isn't all that greedy though is it? It's about as greedy as tower + unit shipments?

[Papist]

Tower just stops you getting housed. Producing constantly from tc and war academy without it is 'doable' but not wothout getting housed perpetually. If you really want the siege the flying crow offers (read: russia, ports, etc.) just send 7 hand mortars. Crows kinda suck age 3. Id almost be willing to bet hand mortars do more damage to infantry than a fortress crow

7 hand mortars have marginally better siege damage than a crow, but the damage to infantry is not comparable (35 for the mortars versus 237.5 for the crow). The crow also has better range resist and better splash (which makes it very useful against Russian paper units).

[Amsel_]

I usually go for the tower. In the long run, I think the boosted eco is more helpful than the crows. I don't feel like crows have a lot of oomph behind them, and it's fairly common for the opponent to just right click on it, and kill it quickly. And if your opponent can kill those 8 skirms as they spawn, it feels like a giant waste of time. The good thing about the skirms is that, against some opponents, you can combine them with your batch from the Summer Palace, and start walking to your enemy's base early on. So it might help if you want to do an aggressive FF; but personally I think the Porcelain Tower is better because you don't die by attrition as easily.

[dansil92]

Tower just stops you getting housed. Producing constantly from tc and war academy without it is 'doable' but not wothout getting housed perpetually. If you really want the siege the flying crow offers (read: russia, ports, etc.) just send 7 hand mortars. Crows kinda suck age 3. Id almost be willing to bet hand mortars do more damage to infantry than a fortress crow

7 hand mortars have marginally better siege damage than a crow, but the damage to infantry is not comparable (35 for the mortars versus 237.5 for the crow). The crow also has better range resist and better splash (which makes it very useful against Russian paper units).

I've literally never seen a crow accomplish anything in fortress vs units. They are so slow and just get right clicked every time. I know hand mortars are very weak vs infantry but it feels like crows are too

[Papist]

Tower just stops you getting housed. Producing constantly from tc and war academy without it is 'doable' but not wothout getting housed perpetually. If you really want the siege the flying crow offers (read: russia, ports, etc.) just send 7 hand mortars. Crows kinda suck age 3. Id almost be willing to bet hand mortars do more damage to infantry than a fortress crow

7 hand mortars have marginally better siege damage than a crow, but the damage to infantry is not comparable (35 for the mortars versus 237.5 for the crow). The crow also has better range resist and better splash (which makes it very useful against Russian paper units).

I've literally never seen a crow accomplish anything in fortress vs units. They are so slow and just get right clicked every time. I know hand mortars are very weak vs infantry but it feels like crows are too

It's definitely not the greatest artillery unit in the game but it still deals a respectable amount of damage, especially when you're fighting in a choke. And even if it gets sniped down immediately, it isn't super important because 1) it's a free unit (this is what sets it apart from mortars the most I think) and 2) you've tanked one of your opponent's volleys. It also one shots falconets.

Given all of that, the only big problem I see with crows are their pop cost.

[Zutazuta]

Always take the skirms for a quick gg

[Lukas_L99]

Academy + 1000w isn't all that greedy though is it? It's about as greedy as tower + unit shipments?

Idk, the tower just pays off more than 1k wood long term so you only wanna use the academy when you need the skirms to hold->usually cant send 1k wood first.

[Garja]

On the subject, crows are awful. In a standard china vs semi FF I'd rather just delete the unit than having it take space for basically no use.

[[Armag] diarouga]

On the subject, crows are awful. In a standard china vs semi FF I'd rather just delete the unit than having it take space for basically no use.

Rofl.
It's not that bad.
It gives you the range advantage (kills 1skirm/shot) and it is super tanky.
It's ofc not as good as a falc but still a nice unit to have, especially when you need to break BH/agra position.

[Garja]

India famous semi ff civ. My point is it's useless vs civs like french or ger. That thing takes forever to cross the map and the opponent just kites it and it will always fall behind. Also such a burden ir will cost units to protect it.

[Mitoe]

1000w is fine simply because it's a good way to be greedy that's safer than going Industrial. China has absolutely no issues spending all of the wood quickly. 2nd War Academy, completing remaining market techs, and securing more resources and LOS with villages is great even when you don't require the population space immediately. You will need it soon enough anyway.

Crows are fine. Can use them to slow siege and apply pressure at range, and if you keep the 1st one alive long enough to get a 2nd one (usually around 15:30 - 16 minutes) then you're in a really good spot.

[princeofkabul]

honestly crows are fine if you get them to setup, people usually just don't care much about them and charge them into 20 hus occasionally. they're just hard to setup (animation is fucking weird) and slow as fuck.

[aaryngend]

honestly crows are fine if you get them to setup, people usually just don't care much about them and charge them into 20 hus occasionally. they're just hard to setup (animation is fucking weird) and slow as fuck.

If......
I know I was never good but I never remember a single time where the flying crow did me any good. It kept dying accomplishing maybe 20% of what it should have..

[princeofkabul]

honestly crows are fine if you get them to setup, people usually just don't care much about them and charge them into 20 hus occasionally. they're just hard to setup (animation is fucking weird) and slow as fuck.

If......
I know I was never good but I never remember a single time where the flying crow did me any good. It kept dying accomplishing maybe 20% of what it should have..

sounds about crow pls buff zoi