spain vs sioux

[chronique]

There is a way for spain to play against sioux? Cause on this patch i can't rush anymore so i have no idea (or just Fast R).

[[Armag] diarouga]

@Hazza54321 usually wins vs Sioux as Spain

[dansil92]

Isnt it usually wise to just go very rodelero heavy? Very pr dependent of course but rodelero spam seems to beat most sioux builds fairly handily as bow riders struggle to kite rodeleros and war dogs can take down cetan quickly. I know of a tournament game where this was done (even getting military drummers tech) but i think it was like captain-ish level players.

[Lukas_L99]

Isnt it usually wise to just go very rodelero heavy? Very pr dependent of course but rodelero spam seems to beat most sioux builds fairly handily as bow riders struggle to kite rodeleros and war dogs can take down cetan quickly. I know of a tournament game where this was done (even getting military drummers tech) but i think it was like captain-ish level players.

Rod start might be fine vs standard stable start but gets kinda rekt by war hut start, 5 dogs aren't enough.

[dansil92]

Isnt it usually wise to just go very rodelero heavy? Very pr dependent of course but rodelero spam seems to beat most sioux builds fairly handily as bow riders struggle to kite rodeleros and war dogs can take down cetan quickly. I know of a tournament game where this was done (even getting military drummers tech) but i think it was like captain-ish level players.

Rod start might be fine vs standard stable start but gets kinda rekt by war hut start, 5 dogs aren't enough.

*most sioux builds*

Of course a war hut open would beat a rod spam, but a 6 cetan shipment will die to 5 dogs. If a sioux opens war hut its easy to adapt and mix xbows into your comp from a wood shipment or whatever.
Other major issue is if sioux goes ff. 5 rifle rider shipment alone can beat every single unit that spain can ship which is insanely frustrating.
Dynamic matchup though, I'd love to watch some pros slug it out

[Hazza54321]

rods are the key i like the semi ff with 10 rods, if you scout wh then start 5 rods add 5 musks then follow up with 5 more bows and 5 dogs and go siege his tp(s). Can also just train no units and 5v 700g and follow in age.

Spain usually is one of the better civs to deal with the dog BB as the skirm rod goon composition is very good.
Another option would be to ff but with rods in transition train huss and pressure abit when u get 10 skirms

[Kawapasaka]

Very interesting, intuitively I always assumed this was bad for Spain because you really want goons vs Sioux and Spain can neither ship nor upgrade theirs.

[Lukas_L99]

Isnt it usually wise to just go very rodelero heavy? Very pr dependent of course but rodelero spam seems to beat most sioux builds fairly handily as bow riders struggle to kite rodeleros and war dogs can take down cetan quickly. I know of a tournament game where this was done (even getting military drummers tech) but i think it was like captain-ish level players.

Rod start might be fine vs standard stable start but gets kinda rekt by war hut start, 5 dogs aren't enough.

*most sioux builds*

Of course a war hut open would beat a rod spam, but a 6 cetan shipment will die to 5 dogs. If a sioux opens war hut its easy to adapt and mix xbows into your comp from a wood shipment or whatever.
Other major issue is if sioux goes ff. 5 rifle rider shipment alone can beat every single unit that spain can ship which is insanely frustrating.
Dynamic matchup though, I'd love to watch some pros slug it out

I think if sioux scouts a barracks opening and starts WH he can cetan semi very easily.

[dansil92]

I think this matchup is sioix favoured to some extent but like hazza said above, spain has some really unique options. If i can monolougue a bit i think it comes down to a few factors.
1. Spain has unusual anticav options. Rodeleros are exceptionally fast heavy infantry and in colonial - as bow riders have a draw animation and cetan cannot kite (despite their insane dps) - rodeleros are able to apply a lot of pressure. If a sioux player looks away even momentarily they can lose their whole bow mass. Additionally they have moderate hand damage base, letting them raid vills. Add in their absurd melee resist to just soak up any axe rider dps or cetan they make contact with and you have a potent anti sioux unit. They have lower siege than other heavy infantry but as sioux has so little infrastructure this rarely is much of a factor- that being said Spain still has musketeers that are much 'siegier' and easy to add in if necessary.
2. War dogs. A pseudo cav unit not hard countered by bow riders. This makes the risk of a 6 cetan shipment far less threatening. Additionally, Wakina's unusually low hp makes them even more vulnerable than compared to other skirms.
3. Lategame. Spain has all the euro late game bonuses. Factories, powerful artillery, better plantations, arsenal techs, church techs, the works. Sioux on the other hand has nearly no Lategame options, apart from the dog soldier dance and other dances. Spain will quite happily win a war of attrition vs sioux. (They also have an excellent revolt politician.)
4. Water capabilities. Spain is an absolute monster on water maps with powerful water shipments and economic options.

On the other hand sioux has their own bag of tricks:

1. Rifle riders. Capable of beating every single shippable unit spain has- falcs cav and heavy infantry. They are essentially the answer to rodeleros that was lacking in colonial.
2. Dog soldier timing. Spain is one of the better civs at holding this timing but it doesnt stop it being a potent sioux power spike.

Other interesting factors are that both have very powerful, upgradeable cavalry and uncardable skirms. Both have strong tech switch capabilities. Spain has much better shipment progression and has more unit diversity.

All in all i would say this matchup is balanced on a knife edge snowballing very hard

[[Armag] diarouga]

Very interesting, intuitively I always assumed this was bad for Spain because you really want goons vs Sioux and Spain can neither ship nor upgrade theirs.

You don't really want goons vs sioux unless he goes RR.
Against br/cav rods are much much better.

[Kawapasaka]

Very interesting, intuitively I always assumed this was bad for Spain because you really want goons vs Sioux and Spain can neither ship nor upgrade theirs.

You don't really want goons vs sioux unless he goes RR.
Against br/cav rods are much much better.

Well, I don't see why Sioux wouldn't go RR against only heavy infantry as anti-cav.

[Kaiserklein]

Think sioux ff simply dies to aggro spain ff, and pure br in colo is sadly the way to go. Not sure what spain does vs this ideally

[dansil92]

Rodelero xbow vs bow rider spam? Can't really use cav...

[gamevideo113]

I think sioux should be able to hold the ff even with an evening star timing and then age, as long as spain doesn't scout it and make a ton of skirms before pushing.
This MU might be harder for spain imo.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Very interesting, intuitively I always assumed this was bad for Spain because you really want goons vs Sioux and Spain can neither ship nor upgrade theirs.

You don't really want goons vs sioux unless he goes RR.
Against br/cav rods are much much better.

Well, I don't see why Sioux wouldn't go RR against only heavy infantry as anti-cav.

Because RR are too expensive and you can just switch to skirm/goon then.

[Guigs]

Think sioux ff simply dies to aggro spain ff, and pure br in colo is sadly the way to go. Not sure what spain does vs this ideally

Wait doesn't 10 rifle riders asap just rekt everything spain can do early on ?
Thought you could 10 rr then 3 dogs/ 5 ar or 9 wakinas and be totally fine with teepees

[Hazza54321]

yeah aggro spain doesnt work especially in teepees, like what u gonna ship? 2 falcs age pikes and have 5 skirm to deal with rr?

[gamevideo113]

From my experience 5 rifle riders can molest 2 falcs ezpz in early fortress, even if spain has pikes and musks and 5 skirms. Even if you trade all of 5 the rifle riders for the falcs, what's the follow up for spain? Not sure.

[Kaiserklein]

By when you get 10 rr, spain has 10 musks from transition, 10 skirms, 4 huss/8 pikes, some dogs, and 1 unit shipment. And if you guys haven't noticed, rrs are actually complete ass vs skirms. Plus spain won't push in teepees of course. Just gonna slow push with 2 falcs, and bye bye teepees and warhut.

I remember playing that MU vs mookie several times and never winning, despite going for 5v/700g ff and doing basically no mistakes. Just couldn't ever fight him in early fortress. Maybe all in 700g ff without 5v is the way to go, idk. But then if you do that I feel like spain can just contain sioux, with a superior eco and mapcontrol, and I doubt sioux can break the fb vs vet skirm/rod + 2 falcs.

[Hazza54321]

spain most certainly does not get 10 skirms, espeically with 10 musks in transition, its hard enough to get 10 musks in transition, let alone having res for 10 skirms after when u usually get 3 skirm batches

[Kaiserklein]

10 musks in transition and batches of 5 skirms is the standard aggro ff isn't it? Probs cutting market upgrades. Anyway, even 5 musks in transition and 10 skirms is easily enough. 10 skirms one shoot a rr for the record.

[chronique]

I didn't expect the rodelero to be useful in aoe3 ^^. When i played this game before 2013, they looked everytime very bad.

[Mitoe]

Screw muskets, just train crossbows in transition while aging 8 pike and pray he isn’t randomly making Axe Riders instead of Bow Riders or aging.

[Garja]

Musk semi and stay defensive till you get a safe mass vs anything he can have. Need to mix different unit types because unlike French, for example, you don't have skirm goon cards, no ups for goons, no fast age up etc. Basically go mostly musk skirm goon (time 2 falcs well if you see many wakinas) and use stuff like rods, mm, dogs, xbows to not get shitted by stuff that counter musks (RR e wakinas) hard until you have a safe mass of skirm goons etc.

[Hazza54321]

ignore what i said previously i dont know how to make this civ work above pr30 level