Torii gates?

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Torii gates?

Post by Astaroth »

Do you guys find the torii gate wonder as Japan at all worth it? I've seen more and more people like Forjustice using it, imo fairly successfully. But I wonder if it is truly better or equal to the shrine wonder outside of novelty strats and rushes etc.

I used to think the shrine wonder is much better:
- worth 2 houses of Pop, ie more than a rax
- grants export and Japan will get a consulate fast anyway
- better eco

Compared to that, the torii gates seemed kinda underwhelming: 1 rax, 1 fairly useless samurai and about 1 TP?

However, the wonder has seemed a bit more attractive to me recently due to the way people often play VS Japan:

Most players either go hard rush vs Japan, or contain +killing shrines + boom (TPs etc) or rather fast semi FF timing.

Against all these strats, classic shrine /kami play just often seems very risky (and boring because you need walls). People will just siege all your shrines, meanwhile outmass. Is it really sensible for a civ that has a bit of a slower start to boom all over the map, which is very vulnerable?

Instead, if you go for torii gates, you get more shipments and can instead focus on earlier market ups. With those and 4vx2 plus 7vx2 plus you still having a few shrines, your eco will actually be hardly worse. But at the same time, your eco is much less vulnerable. You can also semi FF with age 3 shipments more easily. With 300w start, you can even go for a TP easily.

What do you think? Or is the XP advantage plus rax still worse than 2 houses, export and a bit faster shrines? People like Garja or turk play nonstandard, not as boomy Japan but still go for the shrine wonder after all...
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Re: Torii gates?

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Post by Forjustice »

This despond on what mu u r talking about, my personal understanding of Japan is weird to explain in here. What I really consider the core of Japan eco is 4v x2 rather than shrines. But it doesnā€™t suggest I totally deny shrine boom as u can see I do constantly use it in some mu and map.
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Post by Forjustice »

For instance. Japan VS British, that samurai and 2 explorers are use for strategic strike on deny fb, if British keep fb. Then keeping units shipment to destroy it, it take a long time for British to recover from if he/she lost its fb tower and rax, then u can either age( recommen) or boom, British suck on against heavy inf while the mass is high. If British decide to sit on base, just ship 4v by 2, his/her reinforcement will be extremely far away while u under a siege, which suggest u have a chance to engage in a advanced position. Then age
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Re: Torii gates?

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

It's not bad.
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Re: Torii gates?

Post by gamevideo113 »

Garja doesnā€™t always go for toshogu actually. Thing is, if you want to play japan aggressively you have two options as far as i can tell: either consulate rush, where the export from toshogu is useful, or torii, where you skip the consulate early on and focus more on rax/maybe market or other stuff. Correct me if i am wrong, but I think torii sometimes isnā€™t even a bad defensive option; in some MUs if you try to invest too much res into shrines you just die, so you will need to invest a lot in creating units and there will be a lot of fighting where the extra XP becomes relevant i think. Then thereā€™s also the kami boom with CM for defending. Japan simply has a ton of decent options, often itā€™s hard to tell which is the best one. The samurai from torii can be good for pressuring a FB or a TP.
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Re: Torii gates?

Post by Forjustice »

for shrines. They act as 0.8 vils when they gather wood, but as 0.7 vils on gold and 0.3 vils on food( track is calculated), unless u alway put them on wood, otherwise they r not as well perform as ur expect. On re patch, whatā€™s make Japan op is hunt separation, meanwhile u usually have to do a hunt transition in 7-8 mins on re patch, consider 20vils on that for 30 sec transition, thatā€™s 600 Food waste, thatā€™s reason what Japan can really hold on re patch rather than ep map. So that just brought me Japan has to go aggressive regard his weak eco in early age.
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Re: Torii gates?

Post by Forjustice »

U should notice that despite japan armies are so low cost effective, but they do alternative snowballs behave, like nagi act as a fortress hussar when against inf and Ashi with 4.5 speed to catch up miss click free units. The potential of raid is still great in somehow if ur opponent make a mistake.
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Re: Torii gates?

Post by Forjustice »

Also, I care about alternatively eco rather than universal eco, itā€™s confirmed that this is build will eventually gain less eco than ā€œstandard buildā€, but I would like to play a roughly less eco opponent or wrong armies composition which is caused by harassing.
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Re: Torii gates?

Post by Garja »

A shrine with 4 animals isworth about 0.63/vill on food or gold (japan vills gather food from berries only) and 0.75/vill on wood. So yes, wood is significantly better for shrines and that's why yumi start is the most efficient.

In any case, there are basically 2 ways to play japan to its strenghts. One is to focus on resource income (including exports) and use toshogu + shrines, the other is to focus on xp income and use tori + shipmnents. They are both viable, however you always need a certain amount of shrines just to support your population count and also exports are produced automatically. So the most synergic way of playing will always be the one which makes use of all of the civ strenghts.
With tori you play to have tempo and to force/exploit mistakes. Thanks to the many types of units, shipments, etc. there are often opportunities to take advantage of the fast shipment rate and initiative. On the other hand, with tori you miss something on the long term side, like better eco and unit upgrades.
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Re: Torii gates?

Post by Astaroth »

Having tried torii a bit, I feel there is a real wood and housing issue.

Especially if you start Nagi, you'll need to start chopping wood fairly soon or send 600w, because your few shrines don't gather enough wood by themselves. But if you send 600w, you can't go 4+4 vills nor 600g/age3 that quickly... It seems problematic.

Additionally, getting a 2nd military building doesn't seem that easy. With torii gates, there is no incentive or room to get a consulate early on, so you can't get a military building via export that easily, unless - again - you send 600w or chop a lot of wood.

The build does seem good for some sort of semi FF where you don't need a 2nd military building not consulate asap, tho.
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Re: Torii gates?

Post by ShinkuroYukinari »

Torii can also be pretty good if you plan on rushing as japan, as it gives you free Samurai and more XP with which to spam shipments :)
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Re: Torii gates?

Post by Forjustice »

Taking another example when I played against lecastete ger. The to start with coin start was hurst due to u discover the wood treasure and food treasure, u notice Asiaā€™s civ can be flexible with their age up time. People consider they can scout Japan cars sent. Meanwhile I did a change in course in that game. I started stable and sent 5 ashi because I wanna be aggressive, but then I immediately cancel up when I scout that base rax and ship 4vils,4-5 nagi with a samurai do not earn much verse 7 uhlan, but if ger start rax, either pikemen sit at home or crossbow sit at home because thereā€™s no shrine to siege and nagi around. I kinda believe lecastete was cheated by me at looking at deck once, which caused him to train crossbow and lost the game, because colonial play is Japan favor, and crossbow hardly do any damage in fortress play. He just wasted resources for a uncertain treat.
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Re: Torii gates?

Post by Forjustice »

They might said itā€™s my luck rather than scout, but itā€™s not, my card was eventually sent after Ger despite I aged early. Those strat r done under a safer circumstances rather than just luck.
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Re: Torii gates?

Post by Guigs »

Forjustice wrote:Taking another example when I played against lecastete ger. The to start with coin start was hurst due to u discover the wood treasure and food treasure, u notice Asiaā€™s civ can be flexible with their age up time. People consider they can scout Japan cars sent. Meanwhile I did a change in course in that game. I started stable and sent 5 ashi because I wanna be aggressive, but then I immediately cancel up when I scout that base rax and ship 4vils,4-5 nagi with a samurai do not earn much verse 7 uhlan, but if ger start rax, either pikemen sit at home or crossbow sit at home because thereā€™s no shrine to siege and nagi around. I kinda believe lecastete was cheated by me at looking at deck once, which caused him to train crossbow and lost the game, because colonial play is Japan favor, and crossbow hardly do any damage in fortress play. He just wasted resources for a uncertain treat.
Thatā€™s exactly what happened, I saw 5 ashi first being shipped so I dropped a racks and queue crossbows, I checked 1 min later again for your second shipment and saw 5 ashis canceled for 4v instead, my fault not double checking earlier and cancelling bows, could have been 2nd tp orā€™something
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Re: Torii gates?

Post by dansil92 »

If you go torii it is often wise to ship your daymio early as a forward shipment point and to train nagi rather than build a stable. Just dont drop 4v into your opponent's base lol
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Re: Torii gates?

Post by Astaroth »

Yeah, but Daimyo also means later Age3 or later 600w or later 4v...

Idk, Japan just seems kinda tricky to play for me. Obviously they can be quite strong, but I feel whenever I play them, everyone on ESO just seems to have more or less perfect counter stats. Ie if I boom too much, many civs will just swamp me early on, if I turtle nicely, people will take map control, stagecoach, falcs, fortress push.

It feels like in order to play Japan at a decent level, I would need a LOT more practice to get a feel for the civ.

Which is a shame because the whole civ seems really nice to me, I love their units, strong ashi raids etc.
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Re: Torii gates?

Post by n0el »

You can really play it what you see. You obviously want to be on the aggressive side, so usually you can start with 5 ashi and harass or defend a rush, you can follow with 5 ashi - daimyo or throw in 600w and add a market and consulate. It's very flexible because of the shipment quantity and power of japan 2x shipments.
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Re: Torii gates?

Post by gamevideo113 »

Astaroth wrote:Yeah, but Daimyo also means later Age3 or later 600w or later 4v...

Idk, Japan just seems kinda tricky to play for me. Obviously they can be quite strong, but I feel whenever I play them, everyone on ESO just seems to have more or less perfect counter stats. Ie if I boom too much, many civs will just swamp me early on, if I turtle nicely, people will take map control, stagecoach, falcs, fortress push.

It feels like in order to play Japan at a decent level, I would need a LOT more practice to get a feel for the civ.

Which is a shame because the whole civ seems really nice to me, I love their units, strong ashi raids etc.
You should be fine in most MUs if you start making units at 120/130 shrine pop. In other MUs like russia or aztecs you just need CM. If you go aggressive 70/80 pop is a good start.
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Re: Torii gates?

Post by Garja »

Astaroth wrote: It feels like in order to play Japan at a decent level, I would need a LOT more practice to get a feel for the civ.
Correct.
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Re: Torii gates?

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

gamevideo113 wrote:
Astaroth wrote:Yeah, but Daimyo also means later Age3 or later 600w or later 4v...

Idk, Japan just seems kinda tricky to play for me. Obviously they can be quite strong, but I feel whenever I play them, everyone on ESO just seems to have more or less perfect counter stats. Ie if I boom too much, many civs will just swamp me early on, if I turtle nicely, people will take map control, stagecoach, falcs, fortress push.

It feels like in order to play Japan at a decent level, I would need a LOT more practice to get a feel for the civ.

Which is a shame because the whole civ seems really nice to me, I love their units, strong ashi raids etc.
You should be fine in most MUs if you start making units at 120/130 shrine pop. In other MUs like russia or aztecs you just need CM. If you go aggressive 70/80 pop is a good start.
If you don't go for at least 120/130 shrine pop, why would you go kami?
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Re: Torii gates?

Post by Garja »

He didn't mention kami
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Re: Torii gates?

Post by dansil92 »

My current build is to grab an early bank at the consulate and play fairly aggressive with raids while i boom. Japan is a very complex civ, possibly the most complex- but standard play is easily countered
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