Fighting Spanish ATP FF?

[Astaroth]

How do civs that are generally more defensively oriented, such as France, Dutch or even Japan best deal with a Spanish ATP greedy FF? I know Spanish aren't a great civ, especially on RE, but their ATP FF on 3+ TP maps seems quite strong.

You could try full age2, but then you waste a lot of units VS tower /ATP fire and might just die to 2 falc, 4 huss, lances, dogs etc.

A normal semi FF doesn't seem so wise, either, you'll have a hard time destroying the TPs in time and are then vulnerable to a strong early fortress timing.

If you just go normal standard FF, Spain can go stagecoach with like 4 or even 5 TPs and hold his position with 2 falcs.

On RE maps its also harder to just stay content in your base for a while due to low hunts.

Some civs like Dutch can go FI I guess, but that doesn't seem so sensible for France, especially with low hunts. Japanese also could theoretically FI, but not sure it's a good idea if he sieges your shrines with map control while holding 4 TP stagecoach.

So what do you figure is your best bet? Full age2 aggro, semi FF, aggressive fast FF or defensive play? I guess you could also go really aggressive on his base, ignoring the TPs, but this seems more like cheese. If he scouts it, he can go CM, rax, spam shipments and still go Age3 with 4 TPs.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Steal a least one TP and then play standard. It will negate the ATP advantage.

[Astaroth]

Even on maps with 5 TPs, like Sonora or Yukon?

If he goes 5vill 4 TP stagecoach, he will have around 12 vill advantage (3 TPs) for quite a while, plus complete map control (defender's advantage). If you don't push, he can even play contain Age3 with extra TC and you have no hunt.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Then steal a 2nd TP or kill one

[Astaroth]

That's why I am asking for tips on the best way to proceed

You have these options:

- grab the TP further away from your TC and straight FF normally. Spain will then put the tower next to it and siege it soon with musks, age up units etc. If you straight FF with eg France against that, it seems very risky to then leave your base and defend the TP, because Spain can pop all kinds of units on top of your small army. What might work is some cheesy all goon play, but goons can't siege and then he can just go back, mass, and take down the TP then.

- make musks age2 to semi FF and kill his TP. Problem is, you might not even be able to take down tower plus ATP with dogs and age up huss.

- push early Age3 to kill his TP. Possibly the best option, but again playing aggressively VS Spain seems risky.

In short, my problem is that normally you would like to play defensively VS Spanish FF due to their large early mass, but if he goes ATP that might result in you getting outboomed. It's a bit like playing VS Otto stagecoach, with the difference being that Otto has to sacrifice more for stagecoach (ATP for Otto is rarely worth it and very risky due to losing your explorer, so Otto has to pay more per TP), that Otto TPs are weaker and don't attack (see above) and that Otto usually has to go age2 for stagecoach (because more wood needed, less eco etc), rendering them more vulnerable to stronger Age3 units (skirm kiting, 2 falcs, cuirs etc). I'm ofc not saying that Spain is stronger than Otto, just that it can be tricky to deal with ATP.

[deleted_user]

I played this match as France against Kaiserklein's Spain ATP FF on High Plains in a tournament match here: viewtopic.php?p=395104#p395083

While I did lose, I did some things right, and some things wrong, and even gained an even/probably-favorable position at some point before I had to micro.

1) You want to steal 2 tps, because it prevents him from researching stagecoach unless he commits to age 2. I accomplished this by purposefully not building a market on a 100w 100c start and looking for a wood treasure. I got somewhat lucky and picked up 95w and built an age 1 tp. It's possible because you have 2 scouts as France. In transition I built the tp on the opposite side of the map to make it as difficult for him as possible to siege either/both.

Note this is hard to do vs a civ like Spain, you might need to prioritize a native treasure to keep your explorer alive, and/or utilize a cdb to build a 2nd tp, but it's the backbone of the game plan.

The explorer and scout have more LOS than a dog and you need to be on top of that to avoid them.

2) IMO it's not worth sieging ATPs in age 2, especially against Spain who has dogs, in the case where both civs are FFing.

3) Naked FF. I performed an 8 (should've been 10 but I got popped) musk semi and it couldn't accomplish anything even with good native scout placement. Mitoe advised me to go musk semi, but because they were useless I advise against it. Kaiserklein agrees France should naked FF there. Something like 4 cdb 700w can get you up much faster than Spain and start pressuring the TPs sooner with falcs.

4) Good luck. Now it's a relatively normal game except you have to out-micro Spain's rodelero heavy composition fueled by an insane 3 TP xp income. I built too many skirms and suicided way too many goons, but won the falc war. If you win/trade evenly the falc war you needn't worry about losing immediately to Spain's skirm mass since they can't ship skirms. You need a lot of goons to deal with rod/lancer. The goal is to take good/even trades in early age 3 so that Spain can't get the TP line. Once they do, you're in a losing position. But France after Spain has exhausted their unit shipments should be favored, if they weren't damaged.

Note ATP does slow down Spain's FF and requires them to send an extra card - you'll be less susceptible to Spain's early fortress spam. Their critical mass is a little stronger, but the whole point of ATP is to stagecoach. If you can prevent that you're doing quite well.

It's probabaly a tough MU but very winnable with good play, like every MU.

[dansil92]

Spain with ATP is strong and rodeleros will be a royal pain to deal with, since they are so effective vs all cavalry types and lancers being so punishing to skirmishers.

You basically have to win the falc war and micro extremely precisely. Denying the stagecoach will be important, since once spain has a good eco their absurdly cost effective unique units can really show their power. If you lose falc war and dont successfully deny atp then you should probably just resign

[vividlyplain]

Spain with ATP is strong and rodeleros will be a royal pain to deal with, since they are so effective vs all cavalry types and lancers being so punishing to skirmishers.

You basically have to win the falc war and micro extremely precisely. Denying the stagecoach will be important, since once spain has a good eco their absurdly cost effective unique units can really show their power. If you lose falc war and dont successfully deny atp then you should probably just resign

unless big lame civ like china

[dansil92]

Spain with ATP is strong and rodeleros will be a royal pain to deal with, since they are so effective vs all cavalry types and lancers being so punishing to skirmishers.

You basically have to win the falc war and micro extremely precisely. Denying the stagecoach will be important, since once spain has a good eco their absurdly cost effective unique units can really show their power. If you lose falc war and dont successfully deny atp then you should probably just resign

unless big lame civ like china

China mosebar civ. Change my mind

[Astaroth]

Thanks everyone, especially Callen. :)

I do agree that France should just straight FF vs Spain, though, ATP or not. The musk semi is so popular atm, but it honestly often doesn't pay off, unless the opponent rushes, raids (Ger especially) or you can easily kill a TP.

VS Spain, none of that applies. Even without ATP, killing the TP VS tower and dogs can be tricky. You can just straight FF (even 700g 4 cdb is possible) and (if he is doing an aggro build) make musks after (!!) clicking up to Age3. This way your 2 falcs won't be delayed and you'll have musks anyway. 10 musk, 2 falc, MM, another shipment and like 5 goons on the way plus upgraded cdb and maybe a small wall can beat 4 huss 10 musk 5 dog 2 falc and another shipment incoming.

This also kinda works VS Otto. For the most part, Otto won't rush France, so you should just scout and straight FF. If he goes abus, that's fine too. Only scout for the anomaly 2rax Jan or the jan/huss, then you have a rax and can adapt into musk semi. Most Otto will straight FF vs France and the straight France FF with upped cdb (fast age means up around 7ish minutes) and musks while aging up beats Otto FF with defender's advantage. Sure you can try to siege his tower with age2 musks instead, but if you don't find or destroy it in time, you're royally fucked.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Straight FF is 4v/700w though.
And vs Otto FF you need to musk semi to deny FB/forward tower/defend your TP.

[Astaroth]

You can go 700g to be faster, although ofc you will be housed etc. Kaiser eg did it once VS Mitoes Spain.

Otto sometimes goes Jan semi or somewhat backward or hidden tower or is up very fast and has 5 Jans trained already. In all of these cases having age2 musks delaying your age up is kinda bad.

Then Otto will siege your stuff with 2 falcs before you can even click up.

I feel France can hold the Otto FF with straight FF even if Otto has a FB, but Idk maybe it doesn't work on higher levels. Otto will have barely more units, but if you win or equalise the falc trade and wall a bit, you'll be okay imo. Especially with upped cdb. Otto will never fast age, so France will be up almost the same time with a few musks trained to dissuade the age up huss. If he pushed with Jans you have cdb and MM. Have a small wall in front of TC, send 2 falc and make 5 skirm. 5 skirm MM cdb 2 falc 10 musk can stop anything Otto has at this point. Then just mass wall skirm goon, if you're afraid of earlier mams (not so early because 1k gold first) just create a fully walled pocket for skirm goon.

[rnmrtzk]

Hey guys, are there more recordings of gameplay against Spain with ATP? Especially when they decide to stay in age II for some while :)