French mirror - cav start better?

No Flag Astaroth
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French mirror - cav start better?

Post by Astaroth »

While the meta, judging from threads around here, seems to be to go musk start in French mirrors, I feel that at least on some, especially large maps, cav opening stable in base is actually better. What do you think?

First of all, musks can only deter cav to a degree. If you have only 5 musks in one place, cav can still run around and idle or even snipe one or two vills. Huss also beat musks in low numbers, especially with micro. So huss can cause a great amount of damage, unless he has like 10 musks right next to his cdb.

Secondly, musks often don't do that much. Semi FF musks: Yes, you can get the TP, but you risk losing vills to huss in your base. Aside from that, musks get killed fairly easily by upped cdb and TC fire. Depending on the map, a cav start also allows for a 2nd TP anyway, making losing one not so bad. If the musk player goes age2, you can hold with MM and cdb, 8bows if needed and add a rax from 700w.

Thirdly, musks in age 3 don't do that much mostly, unless you go full musk cuir, but that's risky vs France.

So what do you think? Cav start seems to be a better option in some situations imo. It also tends to work VS non top players nicely, because it throws them off their build.
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Re: French mirror - cav start better?

Post by Hazza54321 »

I prefer cav start almost always
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Italy Garja
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Re: French mirror - cav start better?

Post by Garja »

I think meta is still cav start.
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Re: French mirror - cav start better?

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Musk start is viable as well but cav start is easier. With musks you have to defend raids and make something happen (like kill a TP or force him to stay in age 2 longer than you). With cav you just raid and adapt.
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Re: French mirror - cav start better?

Post by tedere12 »

cav start and I like to make 5 musk or pikes if I see enemy training lots of cav batches
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Re: French mirror - cav start better?

Post by dansil92 »

Live the 2007 meta and open Xbow like a boss
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Re: French mirror - cav start better?

Post by Kaiserklein »

Just sucks to have leftover musks in fortress in that match up, and they don't really do much in colo either anyway. I usually wouldn't consider opening musks on a TP map
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Re: French mirror - cav start better?

Post by fei123456 »

musk start works better on RE bad maps
5 musk can't really prevent cav raiding: they run much slower than pikemen, and their range attack doesn't hurt at all
so you're likely to mass some musk, adding some hussar, do an age 2 timing
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Re: French mirror - cav start better?

Post by samwise12 »

cav start is better from what i've seen, as long as you control them well and raid from 2 sides if other player opens inf
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Re: French mirror - cav start better?

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Musk start also makes sense when you get 2 TPs while aging, because then you'd only get a 3huss batch which isn't enough to defend. Thus opening with 5 musks and then adding cav to defend raid is not bad because you'll have +1 TP and your opponent will have to make musks to defend his TP anyway.
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Re: French mirror - cav start better?

Post by Kaiserklein »

Or he just raids you while you don't have cav out yet, sacks his TP, and ages up earlier and then you're left with useless musks
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Re: French mirror - cav start better?

Post by Hazza54321 »

cav start just keeps other dude pinned in base
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Re: French mirror - cav start better?

Post by Astaroth »

Kaiserklein wrote:Or he just raids you while you don't have cav out yet, sacks his TP, and ages up earlier and then you're left with useless musks
This is what I mean.
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Re: French mirror - cav start better?

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Kaiserklein wrote:Or he just raids you while you don't have cav out yet, sacks his TP, and ages up earlier and then you're left with useless musks
It's not that clear. On some maps you can stagecoach if he does that and try to hold the TP line.

You can also go for the safer option and kill his TP and then trade your 10musk+5huss for his 5huss+mm and usually a house and some iddle time.

You're up later but you have 2 TPs vs 0 and you can get nice batches.

Cav start is ofc the standard way but with a good plan and active play musk start is not bad.
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Re: French mirror - cav start better?

Post by Kaiserklein »

Well I haven't ever seen that work so far in high level games. And I won't believe you can get away with a stagecoach in a fr mirror until i see it
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Re: French mirror - cav start better?

Post by Kawapasaka »

make moosks ship cav
it just werks
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Re: French mirror - cav start better?

Post by Oliveza »

French mirror - cav start better?
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Re: French mirror - cav start better?

Post by Ezad »

Cav start always wins :hehe:
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Re: French mirror - cav start better?

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Kaiserklein wrote:Well I haven't ever seen that work so far in high level games. And I won't believe you can get away with a stagecoach in a fr mirror until i see it
You haven't seen it because nobody does it.
You can get away with stagecoach against a 5 huss semi.
Of course if he trains musks/ships 8bows it's bad but then he has to train musks (which is the right choice imo) and you're in a good spot because you both have 10musks/5huss but you have a 2nd TP.
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Re: French mirror - cav start better?

Post by Mitoe »

Pretty sure if you try to stagecoach in a French mirror the opponent can adapt and punish in early Fort. You don’t need to punish in Colonial.
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Re: French mirror - cav start better?

Post by Zutazuta »

samwise12 wrote:cav start is better from what i've seen, as long as you control them well and raid from 2 sides if other player opens inf
And you’re qualified to talk about French mirror why??
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Re: French mirror - cav start better?

Post by Thrar »

Following up in fortress then, if the opponent has a good number of huss left or is making lots of cuirs, what do you suggest as meat shield for skirm/goon?

Pure skirm/goon seems to lose to skirm/cuir (or skirm/uhlan, arquebus/cav, ...) because the cuirs have enough staying power to kill all the skirms before the goons take care of them. Do you just make some cuirs yourself?
I was wondering if upgraded huss are actually preferable in this situation because they have more HP and damage per cost, while the cuir area damage won't matter much when blocking cav. Or even mix some muskets/pikes?
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Re: French mirror - cav start better?

Post by Astaroth »

In a French mirror I'd just go cuirs as well myself tbh. I feel it's very much about scouting there. Upping huss to vet might make sense if you have like more than 10 left, but still cuirs are generally better, you can ship 3 and they scale nicely due to splash damage.

Other hand inf is probably usually not worth it. Too slow, easily picked off etc. However, although this opinion is unpopular, adding a few halbs can be a nice meat shield only if you have 2 falcs left and your opponent none (good trade or waste on his part), your eco is better and he is clearly going mass cuir. Alternatively you can also even go 2 stable goon with some cuirs at some point.

Aside from that, I generally find the musk semi for France overrated or at least overplayed. So many French players just make some casual musks in age 2 without a clear plan. That doesn't seem optimal to me.

Musk semi (ie starting musks) to me only seems really worth it if either:

- opponent goes heavy infantry rush with musks (India agra bot, Japan cons, Otto jan rush); exception being Russia (cav start prolly always better)
- you want to cause significant damage in age2 like killing a forward tower and TP (Spain, Otto FF, although honestly a straight FF is better here imo, musk semi is risky) or shrines (although killing 1 TP alone is not worth it imo, unless you want to use the musks in Age3 anyway)
- you want to go for an early vet musk plus 2 falc timing push, maybe with cuirs (vs India, Japan, sometimes Brits)

Aside from that, I feel a cav start (vs eco civs like ports, Brits, dutch, in mirror and vs Ger, I know the last one is controversial) or a straight FF (vs fast, aggro, low eco FF civs like Spain and Otto) seems just better.

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