No Flag Astaroth
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20 Oct 2019, 13:48

While the meta, judging from threads around here, seems to be to go musk start in French mirrors, I feel that at least on some, especially large maps, cav opening stable in base is actually better. What do you think?

First of all, musks can only deter cav to a degree. If you have only 5 musks in one place, cav can still run around and idle or even snipe one or two vills. Huss also beat musks in low numbers, especially with micro. So huss can cause a great amount of damage, unless he has like 10 musks right next to his cdb.

Secondly, musks often don't do that much. Semi FF musks: Yes, you can get the TP, but you risk losing vills to huss in your base. Aside from that, musks get killed fairly easily by upped cdb and TC fire. Depending on the map, a cav start also allows for a 2nd TP anyway, making losing one not so bad. If the musk player goes age2, you can hold with MM and cdb, 8bows if needed and add a rax from 700w.

Thirdly, musks in age 3 don't do that much mostly, unless you go full musk cuir, but that's risky vs France.

So what do you think? Cav start seems to be a better option in some situations imo. It also tends to work VS non top players nicely, because it throws them off their build.
Great Britain Hazza54321
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20 Oct 2019, 13:59

I prefer cav start almost always
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Italy Garja
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20 Oct 2019, 14:01

I think meta is still cav start.
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France [Armag] diarouga
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20 Oct 2019, 15:01

Musk start is viable as well but cav start is easier. With musks you have to defend raids and make something happen (like kill a TP or force him to stay in age 2 longer than you). With cav you just raid and adapt.
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Bolivia tedere12
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20 Oct 2019, 15:04

cav start and I like to make 5 musk or pikes if I see enemy training lots of cav batches
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Canada dansil92
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20 Oct 2019, 16:12

Live the 2007 meta and open Xbow like a boss
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France Kaiserklein
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20 Oct 2019, 16:23

Just sucks to have leftover musks in fortress in that match up, and they don't really do much in colo either anyway. I usually wouldn't consider opening musks on a TP map
Can sirmusket calculate 5x - x??
LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
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China fei123456
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20 Oct 2019, 16:23

musk start works better on RE bad maps
5 musk can't really prevent cav raiding: they run much slower than pikemen, and their range attack doesn't hurt at all
so you're likely to mass some musk, adding some hussar, do an age 2 timing
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Great Britain samwise12
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20 Oct 2019, 16:53

cav start is better from what i've seen, as long as you control them well and raid from 2 sides if other player opens inf
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France [Armag] diarouga
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20 Oct 2019, 17:12

Musk start also makes sense when you get 2 TPs while aging, because then you'd only get a 3huss batch which isn't enough to defend. Thus opening with 5 musks and then adding cav to defend raid is not bad because you'll have +1 TP and your opponent will have to make musks to defend his TP anyway.
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France Kaiserklein
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20 Oct 2019, 17:24

Or he just raids you while you don't have cav out yet, sacks his TP, and ages up earlier and then you're left with useless musks
Can sirmusket calculate 5x - x??
LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
Great Britain Hazza54321
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20 Oct 2019, 17:25

cav start just keeps other dude pinned in base
No Flag Astaroth
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20 Oct 2019, 18:19

Kaiserklein wrote:Or he just raids you while you don't have cav out yet, sacks his TP, and ages up earlier and then you're left with useless musks

This is what I mean.
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France [Armag] diarouga
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20 Oct 2019, 19:37

Kaiserklein wrote:Or he just raids you while you don't have cav out yet, sacks his TP, and ages up earlier and then you're left with useless musks

It's not that clear. On some maps you can stagecoach if he does that and try to hold the TP line.

You can also go for the safer option and kill his TP and then trade your 10musk+5huss for his 5huss+mm and usually a house and some iddle time.

You're up later but you have 2 TPs vs 0 and you can get nice batches.

Cav start is ofc the standard way but with a good plan and active play musk start is not bad.
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France Kaiserklein
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20 Oct 2019, 19:57

Well I haven't ever seen that work so far in high level games. And I won't believe you can get away with a stagecoach in a fr mirror until i see it
Can sirmusket calculate 5x - x??
LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
Australia Kawapasaka
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20 Oct 2019, 20:13

make moosks ship cav
it just werks
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Germany Oliveza
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20 Oct 2019, 22:02

French mirror - cav start better?

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Peru Ezad
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20 Oct 2019, 22:47

Cav start always wins :hehe:
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France [Armag] diarouga
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20 Oct 2019, 23:11

Kaiserklein wrote:Well I haven't ever seen that work so far in high level games. And I won't believe you can get away with a stagecoach in a fr mirror until i see it

You haven't seen it because nobody does it.
You can get away with stagecoach against a 5 huss semi.
Of course if he trains musks/ships 8bows it's bad but then he has to train musks (which is the right choice imo) and you're in a good spot because you both have 10musks/5huss but you have a 2nd TP.
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Canada Mitoe
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21 Oct 2019, 02:20

Pretty sure if you try to stagecoach in a French mirror the opponent can adapt and punish in early Fort. You don’t need to punish in Colonial.
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No Flag Zutazuta
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21 Oct 2019, 02:57

samwise12 wrote:cav start is better from what i've seen, as long as you control them well and raid from 2 sides if other player opens inf


And you’re qualified to talk about French mirror why??
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Singapore Thrar
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21 Oct 2019, 03:00

Following up in fortress then, if the opponent has a good number of huss left or is making lots of cuirs, what do you suggest as meat shield for skirm/goon?

Pure skirm/goon seems to lose to skirm/cuir (or skirm/uhlan, arquebus/cav, ...) because the cuirs have enough staying power to kill all the skirms before the goons take care of them. Do you just make some cuirs yourself?
I was wondering if upgraded huss are actually preferable in this situation because they have more HP and damage per cost, while the cuir area damage won't matter much when blocking cav. Or even mix some muskets/pikes?
No Flag Astaroth
Skirmisher
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21 Oct 2019, 08:04

In a French mirror I'd just go cuirs as well myself tbh. I feel it's very much about scouting there. Upping huss to vet might make sense if you have like more than 10 left, but still cuirs are generally better, you can ship 3 and they scale nicely due to splash damage.

Other hand inf is probably usually not worth it. Too slow, easily picked off etc. However, although this opinion is unpopular, adding a few halbs can be a nice meat shield only if you have 2 falcs left and your opponent none (good trade or waste on his part), your eco is better and he is clearly going mass cuir. Alternatively you can also even go 2 stable goon with some cuirs at some point.

Aside from that, I generally find the musk semi for France overrated or at least overplayed. So many French players just make some casual musks in age 2 without a clear plan. That doesn't seem optimal to me.

Musk semi (ie starting musks) to me only seems really worth it if either:

- opponent goes heavy infantry rush with musks (India agra bot, Japan cons, Otto jan rush); exception being Russia (cav start prolly always better)
- you want to cause significant damage in age2 like killing a forward tower and TP (Spain, Otto FF, although honestly a straight FF is better here imo, musk semi is risky) or shrines (although killing 1 TP alone is not worth it imo, unless you want to use the musks in Age3 anyway)
- you want to go for an early vet musk plus 2 falc timing push, maybe with cuirs (vs India, Japan, sometimes Brits)

Aside from that, I feel a cav start (vs eco civs like ports, Brits, dutch, in mirror and vs Ger, I know the last one is controversial) or a straight FF (vs fast, aggro, low eco FF civs like Spain and Otto) seems just better.

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