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Hey eso-community, how do I defend against the 3-Hussar-Cheese (13 vil age up, 3 Hussars shipped, more Husars added in) in a French mirror?

I faced it a few times and was always idled pretty hard: I aged with 14 vils. I did a stable start, but didn't get enough Hus out to defend against the incoming Hus reinforcements.

Would it be better to start with a rax and to produce some pikes? Or to wall up a little bit? Is there an optimal way to play against this? (I guess there is one ) Do you have a recorded game where somebody is defending in the right way?

Thank you for helping me out :-)

start musk, as long as you dont lose any cdb you should be ahead, even with some idle time

Castete played yesterday on his stream that exactly MU. Microing cdbs helped a lot. https://www.twitch.tv/videos/503324556?t=00h06m49s

you can open huss, use your exploer in the fight, make sure you can mm when needed. maximize tc fire and dont over kill huss with tc fire. vill punch

BrookG wrote:Castete played yesterday on his stream that exactly MU. Microing cdbs helped a lot. https://www.twitch.tv/videos/503324556?t=00h06m49s

Yeah but not a great example since i was going naked ff, just open huss yourself and get ready to minuteman if other guy commits.
Can also use cdbs to fight

Lecastete wrote:

BrookG wrote:Castete played yesterday on his stream that exactly MU. Microing cdbs helped a lot. https://www.twitch.tv/videos/503324556?t=00h06m49s

Yeah but not a great example since i was going naked ff, just open huss yourself and get ready to minuteman if other guy commits.
Can also use cdbs to fight

What struck out from that game was the good use of tc fire and upgraded cdbs. Although the opponent either mismacro'ed or misjudged how much they should push you.

If you herd very well, 5 hussar and TC fire can defend a 8 hussar attack, and you won't lose much eco.
If the herds are a bit far away, you may try a musket start (on RE maps for example). Musk do nothing in fortress age, but hussars don't work either.

Send 3 huss yourself, make mosks.

Obviously send pioneer first XD

fei123456 wrote:If you herd very well, 5 hussar and TC fire can defend a 8 hussar attack, and you won't lose much eco.
If the herds are a bit far away, you may try a musket start (on RE maps for example). Musk do nothing in fortress age, but hussars don't work either.

idk why musk semi + cannnon in fortress wouldnt be good

@Kickass_OP

If you age with 14 vills dont open huss vs 3huss strat, its terrible imo, thats how so many fr mirror ended in 6-7min.
Because there is no way you make a full batch of huss to defend and prob not have ress for minutemen, if the 3huss start is doing properly he should have 8huss in your base around 5:45, you dont have a single huss out at this time and you are already idle, then he can keep spamming 5huss batch forever under your tc and gg out bye.

Its mainly that powerful on food start, so, be sure to age2 with 13vills on this start.
If he can age on other start with 13vills, well thats prob because he got very good tresor and its a bit unlucky for you, i think best adaptation would be to build your rax with 2-3 vills asap so you can complete a full batch of musq in time (at 5:45 or before) and defend it while having the 4cdb shipement and a decent eco advantage with that.

theory crafting on how to win vs unbeatable strat xD

obv this is only countered by a 12/10 double pike opening, the superior strat

make units

Order 3 huss too! surprise him.

Pike rush

Just start musk and you'll be fine with a better eco.

Thank you all! I really appreciate your input. I try to sum up a little bit (perhaps this is useful for other players):

1) Making musks seems reasonable as an adaption if you aged with 14 vills. Build the rax with 2-3 vills asap, since you want to get your units out before 5:45, because the 8 Hus timing hits around that time. You still ship 4 vills as first age II shipment to get a "a decent eco advantage" (See @flontier 's post). Musk start is preferable when your hunts are "a bit far away" (See @fei123456 's post).

2) Making hus can also work when you herded very well (See @fei123456 's post again). But then I guess it gets more technical: vill punching, tc-focus fire ("maximize tc fire and dont over kill huss with tc fire"), fighting with your explorer, having the ressources for minutemen (all the things @giveuanxiety mentioned in his post), because you won't get a lot of hus out.

3) Another option seems to be to send 3 hus as first card age II to defend: "Order 3 huss too! surprise him." (@Kickass_OP). Perhaps a "Pike rush" (@Zutazuta) could also work.


Perhaps three more questions:
Would it be reasonable to delay steel traps, so you can get more units out to defend?
Can a specific building placement help you defending?
Someone wants to practice with me?

rnmrtzk wrote:Thank you all! I really appreciate your input. I try to sum up a little bit (perhaps this is useful for other players):

1) Making musks seems reasonable as an adaption if you aged with 14 vills. Build the rax with 2-3 vills asap, since you want to get your units out before 5:45, because the 8 Hus timing hits around that time. You still ship 4 vills as first age II shipment to get a "a decent eco advantage" (See @flontier 's post). Musk start is preferable when your hunts are "a bit far away" (See @fei123456 's post).

2) Making hus can also work when you herded very well (See @fei123456 's post again). But then I guess it gets more technical: vill punching, tc-focus fire ("maximize tc fire and dont over kill huss with tc fire"), fighting with your explorer, having the ressources for minutemen (all the things @giveuanxiety mentioned in his post), because you won't get a lot of hus out.

3) Another option seems to be to send 3 hus as first card age II to defend: "Order 3 huss too! surprise him." (@Kickass_OP). Perhaps a "Pike rush" (@Zutazuta) could also work.


Perhaps three more questions:
Would it be reasonable to delay steel traps, so you can get more units out to defend?
Can a specific building placement help you defending?
Someone wants to practice with me?

2) You can probably hold with a huss start but don't expect to get a BO advantage. It will probably be equal even if you defend very well so I wouldn't recommand this. I'd say always start with a rax when you age with 14 while your opponent ages 13. Even if he goes 4v first you're not really in a bad spot as you can add a stable and go for a 15 musk/5huss timing so you'll trade your musks.

3) They were both trolling lol. Sending 3huss first is awful as you won't get an advantage if he goes 3huss, even if you play well, and you'll fall behind if he goes 13v age up with 4v first. Pike rush is ofc awful vs France.

Conclusion : Always start with a rax when you age with 14 while your opponent ages 13.

Other questions :
Don't skip steel traps, you'll have enough resources for a 5musk batch.
Of course building placement helps but BO is more important.

@[Armag] diarouga thanks for your advice!

its always good to have some knowledge of more defensive civs to understand how building placement can be very significant. then this skill will be useful in all kinds of situations

It's actually surprisngly hard to hold if you're up 14 while your opponent goes 12/10 or 13 up. So if you see they're up way earlier than you, and expect 3 huss, you should probably just open musks or pikes. You're gonna have to micro your cdbs and maybe mm. Tbh aging 13 is just a huge advantage in that mu, because if you start inf and he doesn't ship 3 huss, you're behind, but if you start huss and he goes 3 huss, you might get idled forever.

Some player age up with 12/10 cdb??? Never see that in hight level.

It works quite well if you get a food treasure and a 400f 200w start