Dutch on 200 wood start?

[RefluxSemantic]

So, in some mostly unsuccesful thought experiments I ended up realizing that Dutch can just do a 16v age up with a TP completely idleless on a 200 wood start. Why is this not a thing? Compared to not getting a TP, you're up one entire shipment when you reach age 3. A 16v age up isn't even slow, that's just the norm for most civs. So why are we not doing this? Should we be doing this? If so, what should the build order be? Is 700w first viable on a 16v age up?

Discuss.

[Sargsyan]

i think bank first might be better, since youre a bit late

[RefluxSemantic]

That's what I've been doing. You can actually send 3 shipments in a row without downtime because banks also give so much xp, so you can actually send bank wagon 700w 600w and just get 2 banks from 700w. But then I don't really like sending another shipment in age 2, so I've been going for 2 shipments in a row in age 3. That's basically the TP payoff, you get ~800 res extra at minute 10.

[Sargsyan]

yeah sounds good, dunno why i havent been going tp on 200w start before

[Kaiserklein]

Unless you wanna go for some specific build, like shipping CM after 3v or something like that, I don't think age 1 TP is worth at all, because

1) It's not about how early the other civs age up. 16v means you're just 25s later than usual. So your first bank is delayed, your military is delayed, everything is delayed.
2) You're even slower because you don't have 100w for your first bank. Even though dutch doesn't use the extra wood directly, it's really nice for your transition bank, just speeds up your bank boom a lot: you'll have your first vil comfortably queued upon age up, will be able to keep only 2 vils on gold or so to prod vils, meaning you can build your 2nd bank from 400w earlier as you'll have more food, so you'll get xp for the bank wagon (after 700w) earlier, etc. It snowballs a lot as dutch.
3) You get so much xp from banks that it negates the TP to some extent anyway. Like I said with a smooth boom on a wood start, you get shipments almost back to back, so the extra xp you get really comes into play for your 4th colonial shipment or so. Besides, with 16v age up every shipment will be delayed by 25s, so your 3rd shipment (even though it was back to back with the 2 others) maybe doesn't even come in earlier than if you did no TP 15v.

In short, TP slows you down a lot and only starts being useful around minute 7 or whatever, by which time you'll have lost a lot of resources but will have extra shipments. So I wouldn't go for it unless I wanna use the extra xp in age 1 (and unless you wanna CM vs russ or azzy for example, I'm not sure how you'd use that xp).

[_H2O]

Because you age a vil later and have 100 less wood to build a bank. Banks give EXP so you have back to back shipments anyway for your first three colonial shipments. You also can’t spend all the wood from the 600 wood even if you could get it faster.

Exp is not that great all the time.

[[Armag] diarouga]

With treasures or on a mivestock map you can age with 15v and a TP. It's totally worth then.

Aging 1v later is bad though.

[Garja]

it could be good for some specific build. Otherwise it is just faster shipment progress for the sake of it

[flontier]

it can be interesting if you know your opponent plan to stagecoach i guess.

[RefluxSemantic]

After doing some tests, I do believe your mass at like ~12 minutes is just bigger. It nets you an entire shipment at roughly the 10 minute mark, so your 200w investment gave you roughly 1000 res in ~9 minutes. That's pretty nice actually.

[dansil92]

Ive never tried this but reading this made me consider going the above tp+16v butgoing 3v, 300 wood... you could have 3 banks with your transition res, 300 wood and 400 ageup... or am I completely miscalculating here...
It would at most be 15 seconds faster and use the same amount of shipments but maybe I'll get around to testing it against my standard dutch

[Mitoe]

Ive never tried this but reading this made me consider going the above tp+16v butgoing 3v, 300 wood... you could have 3 banks with your transition res, 300 wood and 400 ageup... or am I completely miscalculating here...
It would at most be 15 seconds faster and use the same amount of shipments but maybe I'll get around to testing it against my standard dutch

It’s ok, but not great. The shipment ends up being worth about 500 something resources if I remember the math right.


16v + TP is very situational. Only good if you have a lot of time untouched or if you’re playing a matchup that you need CM for.

[gibson]

I like doing it to get schooners, but I’m sure it’s shit,but fun

[Kaiserklein]

After doing some tests, I do believe your mass at like ~12 minutes is just bigger. It nets you an entire shipment at roughly the 10 minute mark, so your 200w investment gave you roughly 1000 res in ~9 minutes. That's pretty nice actually.

No, since you lost a bunch of resources from considerably slowing down your bank boom. Not to mention you're slower so might suffer more from pressure, and your TP can be an easy target in some match ups too.

[Sargsyan]

After doing some tests, I do believe your mass at like ~12 minutes is just bigger. It nets you an entire shipment at roughly the 10 minute mark, so your 200w investment gave you roughly 1000 res in ~9 minutes. That's pretty nice actually.

No, since you lost a bunch of resources from considerably slowing down your bank boom. Not to mention you're slower so might suffer more from pressure, and your TP can be an easy target in some match ups too.

good points, i salute you my G

[tedere12]

I think dutch gets enough XP out of a 4 bank boom and using that wood to get banks up faster so you can have a smoother macro hence more units to defend might be more useful

[Astaroth]

A TP is greed. Dutch already struggle getting away with their normal, naturally greedy playstyle. Why slow yourself down even more?

I feel a TP only makes sense:

- if your opponent goes completely passive anyway (very rare)
- instead of a bank, which probably only or mostly makes sense if your opponent goes stage