Is it viable to send Hessian Jaegers against China (as France)?

[rnmrtzk]

Hey all,
recently I struggle a lot against china - so here is another noob question: Is it viable to send Hessian Jaegers against China as France? Would look like that: 3 vil, 4 vil, 700 wood, 3 cuir, Cav Combat, 1000 gold, Hessian Jaegers.

I have watched a record where @lordraphael did a 5-Hus-Semi with 3 vil, 4 vil, 700 wood, 3 cuir, Cav Combat, Cav Hp, 5 goons, 8 skirms. Composition: Cuir, skirm (later 10 goons or so). As the copy cat I am, I tried the same and it was not too bad... But then I ran into the Manchu Shipment (at the 18-minute mark or so) and got wrecked by the deathball. Is it reasonable to counter the Manchu with Hessian Jaegers or is it tempo wise not reasonable.

As always, thx for all responses!

[Davy_Jones_123]

I don't think 10 Jeagers are stronger than 9 Iron troops, so imo don't. Invest in artileries may be better choice.

[Sargsyan]

dont do artilerry vs china, just upgrade your curiassiers and go cuir goon skirm composition

[Sargsyan]

also jaegers are expensive and you dont need skirms agaisnt china that much, so your regular 8 skirm shipment from hc and some from rax will be enough

[_H2O]

China doesn’t have a lot of anti cav and their cav is their strong thing. That’s why curs are good vs China.

It’s quite risky for China to open Manchu shipment 1. Red coats are decent. My bet is you are too passive and as a result you don’t push times where you can take good trades.

China death ball is a thing so if you aren’t finding those windows you will have a hard time.

I would focus less on big picture strategy and more on your tactics and timings with the strategy you are using.

[jesus3]

Unless you're really, REALLY dead sure you have enough to block the meteor hammers (keep the range in mind) and changdao swordsmen, don't go for artillery. You will need some kind of "meat shield" and you want that to be cuirs while Goons and a few skirms behind shoot the remaining close ranged stuff. Additionally, China will have to worry about killing the Cuirs that way rather than cleaning your skirms up

[Kawapasaka]

Like everyone else has said, you'll only ever need enough skirms to snipe manchus in this matchup. Once they're gone you can pretty much go full Cuir. Jaegars are overkill.
Consider that RI is the only unit type that Age 3 China can produce a complete counter army against (even though Flails are meh); over-making skirms is the one way you can't abuse China's compositional weakness.

[rnmrtzk]

@_H2O So if I get it right, the first timing I have in my game plan is 5 Hus + 8 Cuir + 5 Skirm. Which I can use to clean him up quite a bit. But what follows after it? And are there some tactics you would advice or is this more about me starting to use my brain and stopping to be a bot?

@Kawapasaka With regard to over-making skirms: would it be viable to go cuir musk? (I have read something about this compositios in some threads, but idk.. I mean you need 5 vet-musk to one-Shot a pike or 5 normal mus+explorer to one-shot those pikes if I am right... but hmm)

Thx for all the responses so far :)

[RefluxSemantic]

Artillery is pretty terrible against China. Meteor Hammers are amazing against Artillery and China get the hand mortar shipment, which just obliterates artillery and then allows them to safely siege your base.

[Challenger_Marco]

@_H2O So if I get it right, the first timing I have in my game plan is 5 Hus + 8 Cuir + 5 Skirm. Which I can use to clean him up quite a bit. But what follows after it? And are there some tactics you would advice or is this more about me starting to use my brain and stopping to be a bot?

@Kawapasaka With regard to over-making skirms: would it be viable to go cuir musk? (I have read something about this compositios in some threads, but idk.. I mean you need 5 vet-musk to one-Shot a pike or 5 normal mus+explorer to one-shot those pikes if I am right... but hmm)

Thx for all the responses so far :)

better to hit timing where china has less mass

[rnmrtzk]

@Challenger_Marco I guess you mean a colonial timing? I tried colonial play before with musk-hus. My best way to beat china at the moment is sth. like: 3 vil, 700w, 4vil, 700f, 8 xbow and A l'attaque! (Even so the 700food feels super nooby to send, but it's quite nice for a musk mass). But for me it feels like a good china player can hold this easily with right building placement and 8 Chuk Ko Nu and his whole Pokémon army (Disciples etc.). And then I am stuck in Age II and hope that I can contain him well enough with my musk-hus composition. Normally I can clean up his fortress army 1-2 times but then it’s gg. Can you transition out of colonial play to Age III-play against China?

At the moment I think 3v, 4v, 700w, 3 cuir, cav combat, cav hp, 5 goons, 8 skirms with an early ageIII-timing (5 Hus, 8 Cuir, 5 skirm) could be better but hmm.

[Challenger_Marco]

@Challenger_Marco I guess you mean a colonial timing? I tried colonial play before with musk-hus. My best way to beat china at the moment is sth. like: 3 vil, 700w, 4vil, 700f, 8 xbow and A l'attaque! (Even so the 700food feels super nooby to send, but it's quite nice for a musk mass). But for me it feels like a good china player can hold this easily with right building placement and 8 Chuk Ko Nu and his whole Pokémon army (Disciples etc.). And then I am stuck in Age II and hope that I can contain him well enough with my musk-hus composition. Normally I can clean up his fortress army 1-2 times but then it’s gg. Can you transition out of colonial play to Age III-play against China?

At the moment I think 3v, 4v, 700w, 3 cuir, cav combat, cav hp, 5 goons, 8 skirms with an early ageIII-timing (5 Hus, 8 Cuir, 5 skirm) could be better but hmm.

yeah your probably missing the transition if you do that,the idea of colonial timing is to do enough damage and you age up behind ,you always age to 3 faster than china anyways and nuke him asap with your first fortress shipment.

[[Armag] diarouga]

As people said, don't send jaegers, you won't need more than 20 skirms to kill the manchus.

[Garja]

I'd rather have 12 swiss pikes. The thing is that no jaeger or other mercs are magically countering what the opponent has. He will most likely have enough of a balanced army at any point you can plan to send the card before hand. However big army spikes can still eventually win games just because of the dynamic of MU, so mercs are an interesting option and imo better than like refrigeration for this specific MU. Game is often won by one battle at some point, there is usually not transition to mills and plants.

On the reason why swiss pikes are better:
with pikes you can force comebacks. It's a more impactful shipment for doing pops, flanks and stuff like that. The logic of jaegers is to give you an uncontestable range advantage. If China can't make enough cav quickly when you have jaegers on the field, its vills will be moved off of resources and it's game over. However you can achieve the same result with normal skirms + upgrade card while you don't achieve the exact same effect with let's say halbs.

[rnmrtzk]

And again, thx for all your input, thoughts and insights!
Is there anyone who wants or is willing to practice this MU with me? My PR ranges from 25-27.

[fishboyy]

Im keen to play this tonight! Will be home in 1-2hrs

[rnmrtzk]

@fishboyy will PM you :)

[[Armag] diarouga]

I'd rather have 12 swiss pikes. The thing is that no jaeger or other mercs are magically countering what the opponent has. He will most likely have enough of a balanced army at any point you can plan to send the card before hand. However big army spikes can still eventually win games just because of the dynamic of MU, so mercs are an interesting option and imo better than like refrigeration for this specific MU. Game is often won by one battle at some point, there is usually not transition to mills and plants.

On the reason why swiss pikes are better:
with pikes you can force comebacks. It's a more impactful shipment for doing pops, flanks and stuff like that. The logic of jaegers is to give you an uncontestable range advantage. If China can't make enough cav quickly when you have jaegers on the field, its vills will be moved off of resources and it's game over. However you can achieve the same result with normal skirms + upgrade card while you don't achieve the exact same effect with let's say halbs.

Idk if it would work (probably not because of redcoats) but it's an interesting option.

[Mitoe]

Didn't really read the rest of the thread but I'm pretty sure Cuirs are really bad against China in early Fortress. Hard to see what they're going to accomplish against Chinese Cavalry (which is insane), Redcoats, and Changdao. Cuirs are good later when China has exhausted their military shipments (most of which are anti-cavalry or cavalry) and your eco is strong enough to support cuir production alongside other things and you can begin investing into cavalry upgrades like Cav Combat and the Arsenal upgrade, etc.

I, at least, am always quite happy to see my opponent going Cuirs in early Fortress. Game just feels so easy from there as China.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Didn't really read the rest of the thread but I'm pretty sure Cuirs are really bad against China in early Fortress. Hard to see what they're going to accomplish against Chinese Cavalry (which is insane), Redcoats, and Changdao. Cuirs are good later when China has exhausted their military shipments (most of which are anti-cavalry or cavalry) and your eco is strong enough to support cuir production alongside other things and you can begin investing into cavalry upgrades like Cav Combat and the Arsenal upgrade, etc.

I, at least, am always quite happy to see my opponent going Cuirs in early Fortress. Game just feels so easy from there as China.

I disagree, goons won't help either against redcoats and you'll struggle against 8skirm age up.
Cuirs however do fine against everything but redcoats which is fine because you have skirms.

I usually start with a cuir batch and then add goons.

[Kaiserklein]

Yeah starting cuir is shit, you just open skirm/goon

[Mitoe]

Didn't really read the rest of the thread but I'm pretty sure Cuirs are really bad against China in early Fortress. Hard to see what they're going to accomplish against Chinese Cavalry (which is insane), Redcoats, and Changdao. Cuirs are good later when China has exhausted their military shipments (most of which are anti-cavalry or cavalry) and your eco is strong enough to support cuir production alongside other things and you can begin investing into cavalry upgrades like Cav Combat and the Arsenal upgrade, etc.

I, at least, am always quite happy to see my opponent going Cuirs in early Fortress. Game just feels so easy from there as China.

I disagree, goons won't help either against redcoats and you'll struggle against 8skirm age up.
Cuirs however do fine against everything but redcoats which is fine because you have skirms.

I usually start with a cuir batch and then add goons.

I just don't see what that's going to accomplish. There's a 0% chance your cuirs connect with any skirmishers. Dragoons are a much more versatile unit.

[rnmrtzk]

download/file.php?id=8401

This game between lordraphael and goodspeed was my reference point. France did a 5 Hus semi.

Shipments: 3v, 4v, 700wood, 3 Cuir, Cav Combat, Cav Hp, 5 goons, 8 Skirms

And this is the game I played:
http://www.agecommunity.com/stats/GameS ... _Supremacy

What went bad:
-lost to many of my 5 hus for kind of nothing
-got outpositioned later on so that it was
possible for him to make my vills run
-his eco was untouched

[Garja]

It's not even that goons are good but that cuirs are just a waste of resources early on. They just have to go through layers of trash units+ the monk (which takes care of the whole bunch making them completely unefficient).
They train slow so it's not like you can be aggressive poking etc. (they don't even do well as anticav like ulhans do). Also you are going to send cannons (gotta trade them early or later they're not doing shit) and goons are just more practical to defend them (you will have more mass by the time 2 falcs have to be shipped).
Vs China you just need to get the most out of your units in every single battle till the point China is out of the big4 unit shipments. It doesn't get much easier from there but at least you have more freedom in army composition and with more vills you can start adding cuirs.

[_H2O]

I was more saying that you should focus on the more granular elements of strategy based on the original post. I would have to play the matchup again and figure out my thoughts to know exactly when to push and which units to have.