tips and considerations for semiFF and FF builds
tips and considerations for semiFF and FF builds
title says it all. I know how to semiFF and stuff. but a lot of time when I attempt to do so, rushes tend to get me. that, or timings hit with 40 musks right as I age and end the game.
so I'm looking for some insight from better players than me on things they take into consideration when going for semis or straight FFs. e.g. vs brits when they just make a shit ton of musks and end the game before you get the fortress stuff out
so I'm looking for some insight from better players than me on things they take into consideration when going for semis or straight FFs. e.g. vs brits when they just make a shit ton of musks and end the game before you get the fortress stuff out
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Re: tips and considerations for semiFF and FF builds
Mitoe is the eco ff god @Mitoe
Re: tips and considerations for semiFF and FF builds
sure. france semi vs brits/russian0el wrote:specific civ(s)?
or german semi vs brits/russia
- [Armag] diarouga
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Re: tips and considerations for semiFF and FF builds
I can't say much about Germany.
As for France, it's usually hard and risky to cav semi against agressive musk/huss play. I'm not saying that it can't work, but if you don't defend well, or make a mistake you'll die against a timing.
Against brit I recommand a musk semi. It's quite safe as musks are better against a musk/huss composition than huss, and then the age 3 shipments and some skirm/goon micro should do the job. You can also mass vet musks and push with the falcs against brit as brit can't really deal well against a vet musk/falc composition.
Against Russia it's quite hard because if you start huss you'll struggle a lot against a musk/coss rush and rushing the third age will be painful. Actually, even if you reach the 3rd age you're not always in a good spot because Russia can mass so much. One the other hand, if you start musk against a strel rush you'll lose your units for free.
That's why I recommand to start with a rax and a stable (ie 700w/4v/700c) and get either a 5musk batch if the Russia player goes musk or a 3-4 huss batch if he goes strels. With that you should be able to hold the rush and then age with 700c but it's not easy.
As for France, it's usually hard and risky to cav semi against agressive musk/huss play. I'm not saying that it can't work, but if you don't defend well, or make a mistake you'll die against a timing.
Against brit I recommand a musk semi. It's quite safe as musks are better against a musk/huss composition than huss, and then the age 3 shipments and some skirm/goon micro should do the job. You can also mass vet musks and push with the falcs against brit as brit can't really deal well against a vet musk/falc composition.
Against Russia it's quite hard because if you start huss you'll struggle a lot against a musk/coss rush and rushing the third age will be painful. Actually, even if you reach the 3rd age you're not always in a good spot because Russia can mass so much. One the other hand, if you start musk against a strel rush you'll lose your units for free.
That's why I recommand to start with a rax and a stable (ie 700w/4v/700c) and get either a 5musk batch if the Russia player goes musk or a 3-4 huss batch if he goes strels. With that you should be able to hold the rush and then age with 700c but it's not easy.
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Re: tips and considerations for semiFF and FF builds
Well vs russia it's rather tricky and sometimes you may have to take a good fight in colo before being able to age. Kind of depends on how all in russia goes, the resources you have in base, how good your/his start was, etc.
Overall though, it's a lot about scouting. You can't really go for a blind bot semi-ff if your opponent is massing 40 musks to right click you. That means he's cutting some sort of eco (typically as brits if you get 40 musks that early you won't boom a lot) and/or follow-up (for instance, he won't have cav on the field anytime soon, which you can abuse). so if you scout it and adapt properly, you should be in a good spot. E.g, add a rax from 700w and train 5 bows, plus ship the 8 bows, then once you've help ship 700g and age up.
A good trick is queuing a unit in each military building (say a musk and a huss) while you're stacking resources to age. That way, if he pushes right when you're trying to age, you can still finish your batches and call minutemen, and hopefully crush him. Obviously if you feel like you can age you just cancel these units. Same can be done with a unit shipment, typically 8 pikes as dutch. Can even queue then cancel several times in a row. Sometimes, just to be safe, you even want to pop these units in transition (typically a few dops as ger) because it might just save the rest of your colonial units or at least allow your ranged inf to trade much better and buy more time until you have your fortress shipment.
You can also build a couple wall segments if you're gonna have ranged inf to defend. As much as i despise walls, it's definitely very efficient.
Another important thing is, obviously, your minutemen. This is a bit harder than the two previous points, because it's not as simple as queuing and cancelling stuff, or checking his mass / military buildings with your explorer. It's about: "If I call minutemen now, am I able to force a fight and clean up convincingly enough that I can age up behind? Or at least will the mm just scare him away enough for me to age up?". And that is just about experience, unit control, decisions etc.
There's more stuff. If you open stable and your cav can't defend your base, just raid with it. If he comes to poke, try to micro your tc fire well. Have a good building placement. Sneak a vil or two out of your base if you expect to be housed and want to be able to replace them. Be ready to stop training vils whenever that could help you get any more stuff out at a crucial timing.
In fortress, good kiting, obviously. If you're not sure what to ship in fortress, open with goons because it's the safest (we used to see everyone ship 8 skirms first as ger for example, and try to hold with skirm / uhlans, but in fact that just loses to a solid musk / huss timing while opening ww doesn't).
I can't list everything because there's just too much, but I think you get the point. In short, besides a couple tricks, it's a lot about general defense skills and mechanics.
Overall though, it's a lot about scouting. You can't really go for a blind bot semi-ff if your opponent is massing 40 musks to right click you. That means he's cutting some sort of eco (typically as brits if you get 40 musks that early you won't boom a lot) and/or follow-up (for instance, he won't have cav on the field anytime soon, which you can abuse). so if you scout it and adapt properly, you should be in a good spot. E.g, add a rax from 700w and train 5 bows, plus ship the 8 bows, then once you've help ship 700g and age up.
A good trick is queuing a unit in each military building (say a musk and a huss) while you're stacking resources to age. That way, if he pushes right when you're trying to age, you can still finish your batches and call minutemen, and hopefully crush him. Obviously if you feel like you can age you just cancel these units. Same can be done with a unit shipment, typically 8 pikes as dutch. Can even queue then cancel several times in a row. Sometimes, just to be safe, you even want to pop these units in transition (typically a few dops as ger) because it might just save the rest of your colonial units or at least allow your ranged inf to trade much better and buy more time until you have your fortress shipment.
You can also build a couple wall segments if you're gonna have ranged inf to defend. As much as i despise walls, it's definitely very efficient.
Another important thing is, obviously, your minutemen. This is a bit harder than the two previous points, because it's not as simple as queuing and cancelling stuff, or checking his mass / military buildings with your explorer. It's about: "If I call minutemen now, am I able to force a fight and clean up convincingly enough that I can age up behind? Or at least will the mm just scare him away enough for me to age up?". And that is just about experience, unit control, decisions etc.
There's more stuff. If you open stable and your cav can't defend your base, just raid with it. If he comes to poke, try to micro your tc fire well. Have a good building placement. Sneak a vil or two out of your base if you expect to be housed and want to be able to replace them. Be ready to stop training vils whenever that could help you get any more stuff out at a crucial timing.
In fortress, good kiting, obviously. If you're not sure what to ship in fortress, open with goons because it's the safest (we used to see everyone ship 8 skirms first as ger for example, and try to hold with skirm / uhlans, but in fact that just loses to a solid musk / huss timing while opening ww doesn't).
I can't list everything because there's just too much, but I think you get the point. In short, besides a couple tricks, it's a lot about general defense skills and mechanics.
LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
Re: tips and considerations for semiFF and FF builds
Both of those posts are really full of information, thank you both. I'm on my phone so cant develop my thoughts yet properly.
@Diarouga it seems that Russia cs Fr is Russia favored based off that post? hmm
@Diarouga it seems that Russia cs Fr is Russia favored based off that post? hmm
- [Armag] diarouga
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Re: tips and considerations for semiFF and FF builds
No, it's a rather fair MU, probably even France favoured assuming perfect play. If I had to sum it up, I'd say :
1) If France goes 4v/700c musk semi against a musk/coss rush, France is winning. However if Russia goes strel, France is losing.
2) If France goes 4v/700c cav semi against strel start, France is winning. However, if Russia goes for a musk start, France will have a super hard time holding the pressure. Assuming perfect play it's probably fair in that case but nobody's perfect so probably Russia favoured.
3) If France goes for a delayed semi ff (like 700w/4v/700c for example but you can stay longer in colonial if you want), France is probably favoured in every case assuming perfect play but since Russia is much easier that's fair at high level.
Of course, this is not that simple but I think that it gives you a good picture of the MU. Personally, I like to go for a musk semi against opponents who like to musk/coss rush because it's a free win.
If I want to be safe, I go for the 3rd option and I'm usually fine but it's attacking is easier than defending so the lower the level is, the harder it is France.
1) If France goes 4v/700c musk semi against a musk/coss rush, France is winning. However if Russia goes strel, France is losing.
2) If France goes 4v/700c cav semi against strel start, France is winning. However, if Russia goes for a musk start, France will have a super hard time holding the pressure. Assuming perfect play it's probably fair in that case but nobody's perfect so probably Russia favoured.
3) If France goes for a delayed semi ff (like 700w/4v/700c for example but you can stay longer in colonial if you want), France is probably favoured in every case assuming perfect play but since Russia is much easier that's fair at high level.
Of course, this is not that simple but I think that it gives you a good picture of the MU. Personally, I like to go for a musk semi against opponents who like to musk/coss rush because it's a free win.
If I want to be safe, I go for the 3rd option and I'm usually fine but it's attacking is easier than defending so the lower the level is, the harder it is France.
Re: tips and considerations for semiFF and FF builds
Ok now I'm at a computer so I can answer a bit more seriously. It seems to me like a semi-FF isn't a hard set build, it's more like a game-plan. when I was playing I think a lot of people would just be dead set on a build and follow it perfectly without any adaptation. sometimes that would win and sometimes it wouldn't (depending on what the opponent did). so in this case it seems like you need to play to what your opponent is doing and then age when you get an appropriate chance. which comes down to match-ups, experience, micro, etc.Kaiserklein wrote:Well vs russia it's rather tricky and sometimes you may have to take a good fight in colo before being able to age. Kind of depends on how all in russia goes, the resources you have in base, how good your/his start was, etc.
Overall though, it's a lot about scouting. You can't really go for a blind bot semi-ff if your opponent is massing 40 musks to right click you. That means he's cutting some sort of eco (typically as brits if you get 40 musks that early you won't boom a lot) and/or follow-up (for instance, he won't have cav on the field anytime soon, which you can abuse). so if you scout it and adapt properly, you should be in a good spot. E.g, add a rax from 700w and train 5 bows, plus ship the 8 bows, then once you've help ship 700g and age up.
A good trick is queuing a unit in each military building (say a musk and a huss) while you're stacking resources to age. That way, if he pushes right when you're trying to age, you can still finish your batches and call minutemen, and hopefully crush him. Obviously if you feel like you can age you just cancel these units. Same can be done with a unit shipment, typically 8 pikes as dutch. Can even queue then cancel several times in a row. Sometimes, just to be safe, you even want to pop these units in transition (typically a few dops as ger) because it might just save the rest of your colonial units or at least allow your ranged inf to trade much better and buy more time until you have your fortress shipment.
You can also build a couple wall segments if you're gonna have ranged inf to defend. As much as i despise walls, it's definitely very efficient.
Another important thing is, obviously, your minutemen. This is a bit harder than the two previous points, because it's not as simple as queuing and cancelling stuff, or checking his mass / military buildings with your explorer. It's about: "If I call minutemen now, am I able to force a fight and clean up convincingly enough that I can age up behind? Or at least will the mm just scare him away enough for me to age up?". And that is just about experience, unit control, decisions etc.
There's more stuff. If you open stable and your cav can't defend your base, just raid with it. If he comes to poke, try to micro your tc fire well. Have a good building placement. Sneak a vil or two out of your base if you expect to be housed and want to be able to replace them. Be ready to stop training vils whenever that could help you get any more stuff out at a crucial timing.
In fortress, good kiting, obviously. If you're not sure what to ship in fortress, open with goons because it's the safest (we used to see everyone ship 8 skirms first as ger for example, and try to hold with skirm / uhlans, but in fact that just loses to a solid musk / huss timing while opening ww doesn't).
I can't list everything because there's just too much, but I think you get the point. In short, besides a couple tricks, it's a lot about general defense skills and mechanics.
that makes a lot of sense; I should play more and try to apply the theory to a real game. thanks dude I appreciate a detailed run down
Re: tips and considerations for semiFF and FF builds
Interesting; but can't the russian player adapt from a strelet start to a musk start pretty easily? they come out of the same building. just theory crafting[Armag] diarouga wrote:No, it's a rather fair MU, probably even France favoured assuming perfect play. If I had to sum it up, I'd say :
1) If France goes 4v/700c musk semi against a musk/coss rush, France is winning. However if Russia goes strel, France is losing.
2) If France goes 4v/700c cav semi against strel start, France is winning. However, if Russia goes for a musk start, France will have a super hard time holding the pressure. Assuming perfect play it's probably fair in that case but nobody's perfect so probably Russia favoured.
3) If France goes for a delayed semi ff (like 700w/4v/700c for example but you can stay longer in colonial if you want), France is probably favoured in every case assuming perfect play but since Russia is much easier that's fair at high level.
Of course, this is not that simple but I think that it gives you a good picture of the MU. Personally, I like to go for a musk semi against opponents who like to musk/coss rush because it's a free win.
If I want to be safe, I go for the 3rd option and I'm usually fine but it's attacking is easier than defending so the lower the level is, the harder it is France.
do you never stay age 2 as france against russia?
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Re: tips and considerations for semiFF and FF builds
Yeah you always gotta scout and adapt. Blind semi ff can totally be countered with most civs. You can green up with a plan, but always have to be ready to change it.iNcog wrote:Ok now I'm at a computer so I can answer a bit more seriously. It seems to me like a semi-FF isn't a hard set build, it's more like a game-plan. when I was playing I think a lot of people would just be dead set on a build and follow it perfectly without any adaptation. sometimes that would win and sometimes it wouldn't (depending on what the opponent did). so in this case it seems like you need to play to what your opponent is doing and then age when you get an appropriate chance. which comes down to match-ups, experience, micro, etc.
that makes a lot of sense; I should play more and try to apply the theory to a real game. thanks dude I appreciate a detailed run down
I think flexibility is the main reason why the standard semi has shifted from vils/700g towards vils/700w/700g; getting the infrastructures up just allows you to stick to colonial more easily, ship units if you need, prod a few bows, etc. People realized it's not "just cav semi and win" like we used to think in 2015 or so, you have to be ready to adapt a lot.
LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
- [Armag] diarouga
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Re: tips and considerations for semiFF and FF builds
1) The Russian player can but it's not as easy. For example, if he decided to build the market while aging, he can't start strel as he won't have enough food (which means that if you see your opponent building a market and you know he didn't go 300w, nor got big treasures, starting musk is a good idea). Also, you usually gather the coin for your musks while aging, and you start training units before seeing your opponent's military building etc. Also, just throwing a random idea, France could "hide" his military building by putting it on the edge of the map to trick the opponent.iNcog wrote:Interesting; but can't the russian player adapt from a strelet start to a musk start pretty easily? they come out of the same building. just theory crafting[Armag] diarouga wrote:No, it's a rather fair MU, probably even France favoured assuming perfect play. If I had to sum it up, I'd say :
1) If France goes 4v/700c musk semi against a musk/coss rush, France is winning. However if Russia goes strel, France is losing.
2) If France goes 4v/700c cav semi against strel start, France is winning. However, if Russia goes for a musk start, France will have a super hard time holding the pressure. Assuming perfect play it's probably fair in that case but nobody's perfect so probably Russia favoured.
3) If France goes for a delayed semi ff (like 700w/4v/700c for example but you can stay longer in colonial if you want), France is probably favoured in every case assuming perfect play but since Russia is much easier that's fair at high level.
Of course, this is not that simple but I think that it gives you a good picture of the MU. Personally, I like to go for a musk semi against opponents who like to musk/coss rush because it's a free win.
If I want to be safe, I go for the 3rd option and I'm usually fine but it's attacking is easier than defending so the lower the level is, the harder it is France.
do you never stay age 2 as france against russia?
So yes, Russia can adapt but not always.
2) No, I just never stay in age 2 in this MU. You're never going to break 2 bh unless your opponent wastes his army (and then you can age anyway), and he will have better units and a better eco in late colonial. Age 3 is your strengh as France while Russia can't go to fortress easily as he has unupgraded units then (no vet and no boyars) and a bad eco.
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Re: tips and considerations for semiFF and FF builds
You can try to stay colo basically only if russia goes really aggro with only 1 bh. Aging can be risky vs all in while staying colo is a safer way to beat it I'd say. But yeah vs standard russia it doesn't work, though on a very low hunt map you might not have a choice.
LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
Re: tips and considerations for semiFF and FF builds
this is a lot of good insight, thanks guys. will process more
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Re: tips and considerations for semiFF and FF builds
@Diarouga 9999 k posts appraching
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Re: tips and considerations for semiFF and FF builds
that would be 9 999 000Makrokosmos12 wrote:@Diarouga 9999 k posts appraching
POC wrote:Also I most likely know a whole lot more than you.
POC wrote:Also as an objective third party, and near 100% accuracy of giving correct information, I would say my opinions are more reliable than yours.
Re: tips and considerations for semiFF and FF builds
does something bad happen when rouga reaches 10k?Makrokosmos12 wrote:@Diarouga 9999 k posts appraching
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Re: tips and considerations for semiFF and FF builds
He objectively becomes a better person than umeu.iNcog wrote:does something bad happen when rouga reaches 10k?Makrokosmos12 wrote:@Diarouga 9999 k posts appraching
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Re: tips and considerations for semiFF and FF builds
umeu is at 9997 currentlydeleted_user wrote:He objectively becomes a better person than umeu.iNcog wrote:does something bad happen when rouga reaches 10k?Makrokosmos12 wrote:@Diarouga 9999 k posts appraching
POC wrote:Also I most likely know a whole lot more than you.
POC wrote:Also as an objective third party, and near 100% accuracy of giving correct information, I would say my opinions are more reliable than yours.
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